Fuses on the panel, or not

2) Thermal trips need a large overcurrent for a long time before they go.
Low value trips introduce a large voltage drop.

I would add to this that thermal trips will reset after a period of time. If the original short persists they will cycle on and off quite quickly (in my experience a few times a second) and will NOT protect equipment from overheating. I had them on my batteries and got lucky to that the output to the 5V converter shorted on the ground - the 12 to 5v converter overheated, caused a permanent short and ended up well above too hot to touch. I now have a normal fuse and redundancy provided by a second battery.

I would be concerned that any self-resetting circuit would behave the same, perhaps with a longer cycle. If you can't physically isolate then you are stuffed when you are flying... Bet you can't land quickly enough

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:39:59 AM UTC-4, 7C wrote:
If you can't physically isolate then you are stuffed when you are flying.... Bet you can't land quickly enough

Someone told me a story about bad smoke developing in the cockpit of a glider. The pilot ejected the canopy. At that point the increased airflow stoked the smoldering fire and something burst into flames. Story goes, he landed and the fire went back to smoldering.

Does this sound plausible or is it yet another BS story?

More air flow can fan or extinguish a fire.

In his shoes, I'd have stepped over the side. I'd really hate to have a
major part of the glider burn away while on final approach!


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:39:59 AM UTC-4, 7C wrote:
If you can't physically isolate then you are stuffed when you are
flying... Bet you can't land quickly enough

Someone told me a story about bad smoke developing in the cockpit of a
glider. The pilot ejected the canopy. At that point the increased airflow
stoked the smoldering fire and something burst into flames. Story goes, he
landed and the fire went back to smoldering.

Does this sound plausible or is it yet another BS story?

A couple of comments about circuit protection some of which has been covered before in other threads;

- Pete Purdie's comment above about undersized wiring is on target. Bigger is better (within reason)! If you saw smoke you probably do not have Tefzel wiring. Get some!
- Fuses are great as they are cheap, fast acting and have ZERO voltage drop across its terminals. Cons are that they are more difficult to replace in flight and somewhat fragile (glass type).
- Breakers are great as they are easy to reset in flight. Cons are that they are expensive, somewhat slow acting and will cause a voltage drop across its terminals. This voltage drop effect is worse at small breaker values, you can loose 1/2 volt or more. That is fine for ships with generators but lousy for gliders.
- Put a FUSE on each battery at the terminals. This is the absolute minimum circuit protection you MUST have.

So if you really want separate protection for each of your devices, then use small value fuses rated just above the maximum current for each piece of hardware. Otherwise go with a large value single breaker to protect the entire system.

As to the use of different types of fuses (glass versus blade type) this relates more to what your IA will sign off. Blade type are certainly more robust and I saw them in lots of experimental airplanes at Oshkosh. But the FAA is a strange and demanding mistress. ;-)

My $0.02. Good luck.

- John

Please don't install glass fuses, because they are prone to:
- blowing under vibration (like, rolling during launch)
- even more prone to blowing in gas-powered motorgliders
- corroding and introducing voltage drop at the (non-gas-tight) ends
The voltage drop breakers introduce can be significant and can cause problems.
Use blade types inline (not on the panel!) and avoid these problems...
Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:26:48 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
Please don't install glass fuses, because they are prone to:

- blowing under vibration (like, rolling during launch)

- even more prone to blowing in gas-powered motorgliders

- corroding and introducing voltage drop at the (non-gas-tight) ends

The voltage drop breakers introduce can be significant and can cause problems.

Use blade types inline (not on the panel!) and avoid these problems...

Hope that helps,

Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

Can blade fuses be installed in type certified gliders?

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:42:06 PM UTC-7, JohnDeRosa wrote:
A couple of comments about circuit protection some of which has been covered before in other threads;



- Pete Purdie's comment above about undersized wiring is on target. Bigger is better (within reason)! If you saw smoke you probably do not have Tefzel wiring. Get some!

- Fuses are great as they are cheap, fast acting and have ZERO voltage drop across its terminals. Cons are that they are more difficult to replace in flight and somewhat fragile (glass type).

Capitalized ZERO, like you really mean absolutely zero, nothing, zilch, nada? Ah in a word. No. A fuse will *not* have ZERO voltage drop. A fuse relies on resistance in the fuse element causing heating and mechanical failure of the element. A typical fuse for a few amp applciation might have a voltage drop of ~100mV to ~200mV drop at the fuse rated current, and that depending on the fuse type and ratings). If there was zero resistance the fuse would never work. Since there is resistance there will be a voltage drop. Now that voltage drop may be a lot less than a similar spec circuit breaker, especially for low trip current applications. And in both cases is not a simple linear relationship, vendors typically provide voltage drop as a part of the spec sheet of their fuses and breaker products and fuse specs will include both that drop at rated current and a cold resistance value.

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:31:32 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Capitalized ZERO, like you really mean absolutely zero, nothing, zilch, nada?
Ah in a word. No. A fuse will *not* have ZERO voltage drop. A typical fuse
for a few amp application might have a voltage drop of ~100mV to ~200mV drop
at the fuse rated current, and that depending on the fuse type and ratings).

Darryl - Mea Culpa. Yep, you got me on that one. Maybe I will do better this time.

Both fuses and breakers have an internal resistance which translates into a voltage drop (which depends on how much current you are drawing). Lets talk about a 1A load for nice round numbers (YMMV).

Littlefuse 3AG fuse specifications (common glass tube);

Rating Internal Voltage Drop Voltage Drop
Resistance at rated Current at 1A
==== ========== ================ ============
1A 0.19 0.19 0.19
2A 0.07 0.14 0.07
3A 0.04 0.13 0.04
4A 0.03 0.12 0.03
5A 0.02 0.11 0.02

Klixon CT series breaker specifications;

Rating Internal Volts Drop Voltage drop
Resistance at rating current at 1A
==== ========== ================ ============
1A 1.10 1.10 1.10
2A 0.35 0.70 0.35
3A 0.13 0.40 0.13
4A 0.09 0.37 0.09
5A 0.07 0.35 0.07

Take aways;

- Fuses have significantly lower voltage drops than breakers by an average of 4x ... but it AIN'T ZERO!
- The higher the current circuit protection device rating, the less voltage drop.
- Covering your panel with low rated fuses or breakers for each and every instrument isn't a good idea.
- Circuit protection devices in series with another device compounds the problem. For example a master fuse sourcing individual device fuses. Each layer drops more voltage.
- As had been said over and over again in this and other RAS threads, and bears repeating, a single large value fuse at the battery is your single best overall safety bet.
- One last thing - Per most manufacturers breakers should not be used as on/off switches. The only one I have found that can be used as an on/off switch is the Tyco W30 and W31 series.

- John

Anyone have any experience with the ETA - 1110-F112-P1M1-5A – circuit breaker/switch? Jonker used these on the early JS-1. See: http://www.newark.com/eta/1110-f112-...-5a/dp/98K5389

Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:00:27 PM UTC-4, JohnDeRosa wrote:
On Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:31:32 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:



Capitalized ZERO, like you really mean absolutely zero, nothing, zilch, nada?

Ah in a word. No. A fuse will *not* have ZERO voltage drop. A typical fuse

for a few amp application might have a voltage drop of ~100mV to ~200mV drop

at the fuse rated current, and that depending on the fuse type and ratings).



Darryl - Mea Culpa. Yep, you got me on that one. Maybe I will do better this time.



Both fuses and breakers have an internal resistance which translates into a voltage drop (which depends on how much current you are drawing). Lets talk about a 1A load for nice round numbers (YMMV).



Littlefuse 3AG fuse specifications (common glass tube);



Rating Internal Voltage Drop Voltage Drop

Resistance at rated Current at 1A

==== ========== ================ ============

1A 0.19 0.19 0.19

2A 0.07 0.14 0.07

3A 0.04 0.13 0.04

4A 0.03 0.12 0.03

5A 0.02 0.11 0.02



Klixon CT series breaker specifications;



Rating Internal Volts Drop Voltage drop

Resistance at rating current at 1A

==== ========== ================ ============

1A 1.10 1.10 1.10

2A 0.35 0.70 0.35

3A 0.13 0.40 0.13

4A 0.09 0.37 0.09

5A 0.07 0.35 0.07



Take aways;



- Fuses have significantly lower voltage drops than breakers by an average of 4x ... but it AIN'T ZERO!

- The higher the current circuit protection device rating, the less voltage drop.

- Covering your panel with low rated fuses or breakers for each and every instrument isn't a good idea.

- Circuit protection devices in series with another device compounds the problem. For example a master fuse sourcing individual device fuses. Each layer drops more voltage.

- As had been said over and over again in this and other RAS threads, and bears repeating, a single large value fuse at the battery is your single best overall safety bet.

- One last thing - Per most manufacturers breakers should not be used as on/off switches. The only one I have found that can be used as an on/off switch is the Tyco W30 and W31 series.



- John

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:39:59 AM UTC-7, 7C wrote:
2) Thermal trips need a large overcurrent for a long time before they go.

Low value trips introduce a large voltage drop.



I would add to this that thermal trips will reset after a period of time. If the original short persists they will cycle on and off quite quickly (in my experience a few times a second) and will NOT protect equipment from overheating. I had them on my batteries and got lucky to that the output to the 5V converter shorted on the ground - the 12 to 5v converter overheated, caused a permanent short and ended up well above too hot to touch. I now have a normal fuse and redundancy provided by a second battery.



I would be concerned that any self-resetting circuit would behave the same, perhaps with a longer cycle. If you can't physically isolate then you are stuffed when you are flying... Bet you can't land quickly enough

Uh? Why are you talking about "thermal trips" and automatic resetting? These thingies are called circuit breakers. Yes they they internally thermally trip, but so what. An aviation circuit breaker like the popular Klixon "TC" product lines will not automatically reset. You've got to push 'em back in.. For good reason.

Darryl