Best cross country ship class

Perhaps a better movie analogy would be "show me the money!". Your choice in gliders will be dictated by how much you want to spend on one. Once you have a dollar figure in mind, you can narrow down your options.
Craig

Craig,

I hear you. However, I can pick a budget of $30k and usually pick between a flapped and non-flapped (flapless?) for close to that budget. The same seems true for $50k and $70k.

Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them...

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:53:11 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped
sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them...

In my experience owning various flapped and unflapped gliders, with flaps, you have a better view over the nose and can make a slower approach than is typical of equivalent unflapped gliders. If you always land at airports, it won''t make much difference, but I made my share of mistakes while learning cross-country flying, flaps saved my bacon more than once. I also found it advantageous to crank in full thermal flap (and sometimes more) when climbing full of water in the kind of small tight cores we sometimes need to deal with out here on the west coast. And, if you're cruising at 90+ knots with water, negative flaps do make a noticeable difference.

On the other hand, the work load in a flapped glider is noticeably higher than without flaps, for that reason alone I'll probably do without in my next glider...

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:53:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them....

Well, when you top out that last thermal with a good final glide home, it sure is nice to push the flaps up and walk away from your buddy in his un-flapped glider...

Seriously, there is a small but significant difference in performance with flaps. But it depends a lot on where and how you fly - Eastern US, fun flying, not so much (except on the ridge?). Out West, racing or pushing hard, it can be significant. Same can be said about water - both are a bit addictive when sampled in the right conditions (120+ knot final glides, for example!)

For some, the slower landing speed of flapped gliders is appealing.

Me, I like having something useful to do with my left hand!

Kirk
66
LS6-b

Good feedback.

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.

Here is where I am now:
Discus 2b
ASW-27
a distant third: SZD 55-1
long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the best standard class you can get.

For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus 2 seems to win many more championships.

I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown any of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or so...hopefully.

Thanks for the help!

Flaps (27, V2) have small but distinct advantages. Thermal slower, see over the nose, very high speed glides, ridge bombing, final approach steeper, land slower, better takeoff control. I think they are abundantly worth the roughly $5-$10k price you pay.

As others pointed out, modern flapped gliders are very easy to fly -- no real extra skill needed. Really, the only reason unflapped gliders exist is because there was an FAI class that said no flaps.

Notice "was." The standard class is dying out as a competition class. Though no new standard/15 meter gliders are being made, 15 meter will remain a very competitive essentially one design class for a long time. If you buy standard, get ready to join club class, handicapped regionals, or suffer flap envy in 15 meter. Sure, everyone says the performance is "almost" the same, and winning is up to the pilot, and you're only giving up 20 points a day.. Are you going to be happy with that?

If you buy standard, you will be thinking for a long time, "should I move up to flaps?" If you buy 15, that won't be nagging you. Of course, "should I pay another $80k for 18 meters" will start nagging you, but that's easier to ignore.

John Cochrane (Pegasus, Discus CS, ASW27)

John,

Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:52:06 AM UTC-6, wrote:
John,



Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

Go for a flapped ship for all of the reasons you have read....You will not regret it! Good luck!
Renny
(1-26B, Std. Cirrus, Pegasus, 304CZ, Discus 2B, LAK-17B FES) ;-)

At 14:52 16 October 2013, wrote:
John,

Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.



Don't exclude the LS8 you will have to pay dg maintainance tax but its a
good ship and a different cockpit fit,at the end of the day if your not
comfy (spelled wrong ?) then its the ship.So sit in some,most people are
happy to show you their glider if its anything like a british club they
will offer good advise and tell you theirs is the best.

In terms of flaps, basically if you're not going to be cruising more than
75 knots (unballasted) most of the time, it doesn't really matter if you're
in a standard or flapped ship. Effectively, a standard ship has two "flap"
settings built into its airfoil; thermalling and cruising. The cruising
part is in the order of 0 to a couple positive degrees of flap, where the
smart German engineers figured you will be flying the vast majority of the
time. So if you're going to be flying in stronger conditions, above MC 3,
you'll notice the difference. Otherwise, they're practically identical.

Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

At 14:05 16 October 2013, wrote:
Good feedback.

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.

Here is where I am now:
Discus 2b
ASW-27
a distant third: SZD 55-1
long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the
best
standard class you can get.

For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus
2
seems to win many more championships.

I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown
any
of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or
so...hopefully.

Thanks for the help!