Best cross country ship class

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:07:41 PM UTC-6, Echo wrote:
This sport confuses me............

Jordan

CFIG+ASW20
Don't think too much into this. Go back to my previous post. If a guy is going to end up with a 27 or a V2 B/Cx why not just start with one. I agree the 20 is a great 35K ship and the 27 is a great 80K ship. On most afternoons I can fly a 300 in my 27 faster than my former 20. And it is easier to rig and more relaxing to fly.

True, and that works if soaring is your only iron in the aviation fire. But for many, we can't get tows 5/7 days, but if you had a 20 and a J3, now you can have a great time either way. Like I said, all depends where your priorities are in the sport. As someone else mentioned, everyone has to make their own decisions.

Jordan

Ok, folks. Update time.

I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).

I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.

I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).

Here are a couple of comments/questions:
1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!

3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...

4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.

Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

-J

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:31:39 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Ok, folks. Update time.



I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).



I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.



I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).



Here are a couple of comments/questions:

1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"



2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!



3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...



4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.



Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?



-J

Since you are in the Seattle area you might want to contact some of the local pilots in the Seattle area. we've been flying XC out of KAWO (Arlington) for years now in 1.5 to 8+ knots of lift and having a great time. We can fly all day long (in the summer) starting with 1.5 kts at the start, then work our way to the foothills/mountains and end the day using strong lift in the mountains to get us home. Notable flights over 300km regularly happen and 500+ point days are getting common.

I fly with guys in standard and 15m class and everyone has a great time; everyone climbs well and runs well, even the guys in the "older" ships. I myself fly a 15m homebuilt and it does just fine.

Buy the best ship you can comfortable afford. You will get used to it, it will perform amazingly well and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

My .02c worth.

Brad

On 10/19/2013 12:31 PM, wrote:
Ok, folks. Update time.

Snip...

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first
ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world
consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before
flying one, speak up!

Funny you should ask. I went from 2-33s and 1-26s to 15 meter
large-deflection-flaps-only (i.e. no spoilers) glass with 128 total hours;
transitioning to flaps need not (*should* not) be negatively traumatic. See my
post in the recent thread "Use of Flaps in the Pattern" for prolix details.

3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...

Good thinking. :-)


4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge
with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out
from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.

Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

Not mine. Buy what you can afford. Fly within your and the ship's
capabilities. Go have gobs of fun.

Bob W.

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:31:39 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

My first glass ship was flapped - an LS-3. It was no problem. I owned and LS-4 for more than a decade and loved it. I now fly a -27 and love it even more.

The most important points IMO:

1) If you plan to fly XC in the western high deserts flaps are an important consideration for outlandings. Energy goes up with the square of approach speed - flaps help a lot.

2) If you intend to fly in contests 15M has better attendance. The notion that you can fly Standard against 15M and give up a few percent every day ultimately will frustrate you, but only if you fly FAI class and not Sports or Club. My guess is if you are just getting started this will be less of a consideration than #1 - at least for several years.

3) If you fly around Seattle take the time to explore sites where the conditions are stronger like Ephrata. It's worth the extra drive - really.

If you have less to spend, an ASW-20 or Ventus is a great ship. If you have twice as much a -27 or V2 will take you a long way and are even nicer to fly. There are other good options too, but those are the most plentiful models.

9B

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:31:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Ok, folks. Update time.



I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).



I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.



I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).



Here are a couple of comments/questions:

1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"



2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!



3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...



4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.



Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?



-J

"Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!"

Yes, most owners have.

There is nothing esoteric with a flapped sailplane, they are slightly more efficient at different speeds. Read the manual and once you know the speeds to fly it becomes second nature without much thinking about it. I have an older 15 meter ship and spend 85% of my time flying with two flap settings, one for climb the other for running above 70 knots. The main difference between a standard class ship and one with flaps it that you move your left wrist every once in a while. I have owned two flapped ships an RS-15 and a Mini Nimbus, both docile and a lot of fun to fly!

If you can afford an ASW 27 buy one, they are awesome machines.

Mike

Mini Nimbus
N8FZ

On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:31:39 -0700, tech.norcal wrote:

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my
first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My
world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped
ship before flying one, speak up!

I did - ASW-20.

I'd put it this way: using the flaps is no big deal. Its rather like
having learned to drive in an automatic car and then converted to a
manual gear shift. Using clutch and gear lever isn't difficult, but being
it the right gear at all times takes a lot of practice.

In my case, retraining myself to use the flap lever as the prime speed
control rather than pushing the stick/retrimming took a bit of time.
After about 35 hours I'd 'got it' to the point of being in the right flap
setting 95+% of the time without needing to think about it.

Some background: I learnt to fly in glass (ASK-21,G103,Puchacz) before
getting my Bronze xc signoff and Silver C in the club's SZD Juniors. I
had 82 hours when I transitioned to a Pegase 90 and 270 hours, mostly in
the Pegase plus a little in a Discus or two, when I got the ASW-20.

I'm certain having that experience in higher performance unflapped
gliders helped my transition to flaps, just as time in the G103 was
beneficial for the move up from Juniors to more slippery gliders: speed
control in a G103 is more of an issue than it is in an ASK-21 or Puchacz.

For a variety of reasons I won't go into I now fly a Standard Libelle,
which I prefer to the '20, mainly because the way it likes to be flown is
closer to my natural flying style.

I'd say its essential to have at least sat in any type before you buy
one: you're going to be sitting in yours for a long time when you make
big flights and you really don't want to be uncomfortable during those
hours. If possible, fly an example before buying one though that can be
difficult, but renting may be possible.

HTH

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!


I think here you are mixing up two issues -- what glider to buy, with a 5 + year horizon, and how to make the transition to that glider. A competent private glider can transition safely to either a modern flapped glider or standard class glider.

But EITHER is a substantial transition. Both are slippery in the pattern. The nose angles, sight pictures, sound pictures etc. are quite different from what you're used to. You're used to an effort to keep speed up in the pattern. Now you need to get used to keeping speed down in the pattern. These gliders love to go 80 knots. If you suffer from the standard illusion that putting the nose down makes you descend at a steeper angle -- an easy mistake to make in trainers -- you will find yourself getting to ground effect around 90 knots and sailing toward the far boundary of the airport. If you get in a hurry and put the wheel on the ground, as you can get away with in a 2-33, you will bounce down the runway in ever larger pios until the gear collapses. These issues are actually a little harder in a modern standard class glider such as D2 because no flaps and a low angle of incidence means the nose is pointing to the sky at low speeds, and you don't have the extra drag of landing flaps.

All told, since you're going to be spending about $80k on a glider, and then another $5k on instrument upgrades etc., invest $1k on transition training. If not available locally, fly to a really good operation that has a duo discus or similar glider, topnotch instructors, and a single seat high performance glider. Take some serious real world transition training in the duo, a checkout in the single, and get a few hours. Then you're ready to transition to whatever glider you end up buying. I don't know the northwest operations. Williams has a duo, asw24 and asw27, and great instructors. A few days spent at an operation like that would really pay off. These are not huge big deals. A good private pilot can do this in a few days. But they are important.

The differences between D2 and 27 are very small in this regard. The difference between either and a 2-33 is enormous. Buying one and then just jumping in to it with a verbal checkout and some condor time is not a great idea. A good instructor can show you what to look for and the common pitfalls

John Cochrane

Excellent!

Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.

However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.

Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.

I'll update as I go through the purchase process...