Best cross country ship class

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!


I think here you are mixing up two issues -- what glider to buy, with a 5 + year horizon, and how to make the transition to that glider. A competent private glider can transition safely to either a modern flapped glider or standard class glider.

But EITHER is a substantial transition. Both are slippery in the pattern. The nose angles, sight pictures, sound pictures etc. are quite different from what you're used to. You're used to an effort to keep speed up in the pattern. Now you need to get used to keeping speed down in the pattern. These gliders love to go 80 knots. If you suffer from the standard illusion that putting the nose down makes you descend at a steeper angle -- an easy mistake to make in trainers -- you will find yourself getting to ground effect around 90 knots and sailing toward the far boundary of the airport. If you get in a hurry and put the wheel on the ground, as you can get away with in a 2-33, you will bounce down the runway in ever larger pios until the gear collapses. These issues are actually a little harder in a modern standard class glider such as D2 because no flaps and a low angle of incidence means the nose is pointing to the sky at low speeds, and you don't have the extra drag of landing flaps.

All told, since you're going to be spending about $80k on a glider, and then another $5k on instrument upgrades etc., invest $1k on transition training. If not available locally, fly to a really good operation that has a duo discus or similar glider, topnotch instructors, and a single seat high performance glider. Take some serious real world transition training in the duo, a checkout in the single, and get a few hours. Then you're ready to transition to whatever glider you end up buying. I don't know the northwest operations. Williams has a duo, asw24 and asw27, and great instructors. A few days spent at an operation like that would really pay off. These are not huge big deals. A good private pilot can do this in a few days. But they are important.

The differences between D2 and 27 are very small in this regard. The difference between either and a 2-33 is enormous. Buying one and then just jumping in to it with a verbal checkout and some condor time is not a great idea. A good instructor can show you what to look for and the common pitfalls

John Cochrane

Excellent!

Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.

However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.

Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.

I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

;845808]Excellent!

Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.

However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.

Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.

I'll update as I go through the purchase process...[/quote]

Estrella. Excellent choice. Super helpful folks; with their unique desert...user friendly set up....

You know. The Germans have done a very good job designing their ships. They are all very, very good. Some people have a preference for blonds, or red heads, or dark hair. Some people go for long legs or long necks. You will love the ship you have.

My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cobra trailer is going to be wonderful.

The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and lower the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes.."

My experiences. My opinions.

My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there
are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cob
ra trailer is going to be wonderful.

I second that. I've seen a few gliders obtain damage because of not-so ideal trailers.
A trailer might be fine if you're fit and have a strict checklist, but when you outlanded after a long flight you might not pay attention. It would be great if a well-designed trailer can save
you at this moment.

I got one after someone scratched my wing when he wasn't paying attention. And I've seen a few club gliders obtain damage because of bad trailers.

The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the
Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings
and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the
one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and low
er the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes
."

Also true. Unfortunately you don't make a lot of friends when (de-)rigging your glider is a pain.

Roel

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:56:30 -0700, tech.norcal wrote:

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world
class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our
PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man
winter stealing our fun.

I've flown a PW-5 about once, but for long enough to get a feel for it.
Be aware that its more like low/medium performance glass to fly (think
G102, SZD Junior, ASK-21 or Puchacz) than even mid 70's high performance
glass (e.g Pegase, Discus 1), let along anything more modern. The
instructor who said that flying a PW-5 was rather like flying a paper bag
wasn't wrong: its fairly slow and with a rather light wing loading.

I agree with John - get checked out in a modern two seater and a single
seater thats at least in the Discus 1 or Pegase class.

In the mean time if there's a Grob G103 in your area and you haven't
flown one, you could do a lot worse than adding that to your log book
before heading for Estrella. If nothing else, it will teach you quite a
bit about speed control in the circuit.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

With respect to fine pilots who have given worthwhile information in this thread, I'd highly recommend that you CALL (not email, blog, etc) someone with a great deal of experience in gliders. I can recommend 3 in your area that would be happy to spend the time talking directly to you about the pros and cons of ships and transition training. A 15 minute call will give you a great deal more information than this thread will and if you access local pilots, they will tailor the info to Western and Eastern Washington soaring conditions. Steve Northcraft is an LS8 driver who is also your regional SSA Director. Mike Newgard is the President of the SGC and flies a Ventus. Noel Wade runs the Dustup at EPH every year. Noel is currently transitioning from STD to 15M. All are excellent competition pilots. Their phone numbers can be found at the Seattle Glider Council website. Reach out to them. It definitely will be worth your while.

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:56:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Excellent! Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider. I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun. However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me. Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali. I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

The "latest" ships like the V2, '27, D2, '28 provide one significant benefit relative to the '20, '24, Discus etc. That is that they have newer gelcoat.

Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:

I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little
experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of
medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I
am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would
not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.

Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one
sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or
national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-
person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27
etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a
run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would
save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable
cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give
more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would
greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the
top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.

IMHO.

Chris N

I would like to add my $0.02 to what Chris stated. I jumped into soaring with both feet early last year. I realized very quickly that, in the club environment,owning my own glider would give me the opportunity to fly more and fly longer. I also realized that, being a very new pilot, I needed a safe and relatively uncomplicated ship. After some research, I purchased a PW-5. For less than the cost of a mid-priced new car, I was able to buy a very clean, low time, well instrumented sailplane with a beautiful trailer.

Because the PW-5 is a very nice handling ship with no nasty habits, my instructors had enough confidence in me and my ship to sign me off to fly the PW-5 post solo but pre license.

Now, after getting my "ticket" in Marfa last February with Burt Compton (thanks Burt!), the PW-5 is greatly helping me increase my flying and soaring skills.

Do I still drool over slicker ships with more wings - yep. Will I purchase a top level sailplane in the future - I certainly hope so. Will my wife sign off on the investment..........well, that is going to take some effort

Until then, I intend to fly the hell out of the PW-5 and enjoy every minute..

Lou

On Monday, October 21, 2013 7:09:25 PM UTC-5, Chris Nicholas wrote:
Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:



I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little

experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of

medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I

am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would

not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.



Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one

sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or

national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-

person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27

etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a

run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would

save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable

cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give

more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would

greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the

top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.



IMHO.



Chris N