"Bravo Sierra" check (was "China's Army on Combat Alert")

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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"Pepperoni" wrote in message
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"redc1c4" wrote in message
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coupla things here for the RAM folxs:

1. it seems to me that coming to a more or less "complete stop"
is
suicidal in ACM. it sure as hell would make the AAA solution
easier.

The Russians came up with that maneuver. It seems that when they
do that
move, our targeting radar, not seeing movement, mistakes the radar
return
as
a ground feature. (mountain, etc)

Horsefeathers, they dont come to a complete stop, such a manoeveur
makes aircraft fall out of the air, they make a momentary change of
heading
at the cost of a large energy loss.

Some versions of the Su27/Su37 have thrust vectoring nozzles and can
thus balance on their tail till the fuel runs out.

The Joint German American X-31 which has thrust vectoring has a I
believe a 20:1 kill ratio in dogfights against F16s.

In otherwords in dogfights it is decisive. (In a world of Stealth one
would expect dogfights to occur by accident)

(back in test to acquire data on vectoring for STOL)




This seems extremely unlikley
to cause a break in radar lock.

It would not show up on MTI or give a doppler return. If done close
enough to ground it might prevent an acquisition due to ground
clutter.

Oddly enough, even the Russian test pilots said that they really saw no
combat utility for the Cobra maneuver.

Brooks


It is in any case a close combat move
when any bandit would be looking to use heat seekers

Since the Russians do not use radar
(having cryogenic heat viewers, instead) they have a distinct
advantage.

More horse****, the Russians assuredly DO use radar, theit BVRAAM's
are radar guided.

They can obviously maintain radar silence till they need to illuminate
the target. The AA11 alamo "amraamski" is only in limited service
but has an active homing radar.



They can see our targeting radar sweeps, but do not output a
signature,
because their infrared gear is passive.
I believe it is called the "Snakehead" maneuver.


Cobra

Keith

Kevin Brooks wrote:
"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Pepperoni" wrote in message
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This seems extremely unlikley
to cause a break in radar lock.

It would not show up on MTI or give a doppler return. If done close
enough to ground it might prevent an acquisition due to ground
clutter.


Oddly enough, even the Russian test pilots said that they really saw no
combat utility for the Cobra maneuver.

Brooks

I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
Assuming that you do this within AMRAAMSKI range, you could launch a
missile to defeat the US aircraft without being tracked accurately
enough by the US aircraft to destroy you. From the US point of view,
the SU-27 appears on your screen, then disappears.

The supporters of this theory claimed that it was further indication
that the F-15 was becoming obsolete in the face of new threats, and an
aircraft that provides little warning to provoke an SU-27 to adopt this
strategy (F/A-22) was (and is) required. They had managed to run a
number of (two-dome, I believe) simulations where they could kill F-15s
with regularity in a SU-27-like simulated threat. The detractors claim
that this was an unlikely manuever in any realistic combat situation,
and would be very difficult for people with less training than the US
Air Force to carry out.

To me, it also seems that such a strategy requires better situational
awareness than most SU-27 operators could muster.

Michael Zaharis wrote:



Kevin Brooks wrote:

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Pepperoni" wrote in message
...

This seems extremely unlikley
to cause a break in radar lock.


It would not show up on MTI or give a doppler return. If done close
enough to ground it might prevent an acquisition due to ground
clutter.



Oddly enough, even the Russian test pilots said that they really saw no
combat utility for the Cobra maneuver.

Brooks


I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
Assuming that you do this within AMRAAMSKI range, you could launch a
missile to defeat the US aircraft without being tracked accurately
enough by the US aircraft to destroy you. From the US point of view,
the SU-27 appears on your screen, then disappears.

The supporters of this theory claimed that it was further indication
that the F-15 was becoming obsolete in the face of new threats, and an
aircraft that provides little warning to provoke an SU-27 to adopt this
strategy (F/A-22) was (and is) required. They had managed to run a
number of (two-dome, I believe) simulations where they could kill F-15s
with regularity in a SU-27-like simulated threat. The detractors claim
that this was an unlikely manuever in any realistic combat situation,
and would be very difficult for people with less training than the US
Air Force to carry out.

To me, it also seems that such a strategy requires better situational
awareness than most SU-27 operators could muster.


BTW, before flaming, I am not claiming that this is a workable strategy
or not. I haven't enough first-hand knowledge of ACM or BVR engagements
(in fact, I have none - everything I know is from reading and talking
with people). Just repeating what was reported regarding this in AW&ST.

"Michael Zaharis" wrote in message
...
xxxxxxxxxxx

I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
xxxxxxxxxxx

The maneuver is to pitch the aircraft into vertical flight and maintain a
constant altitude with the throttle. The aircraft has near zero airspeed,
and constant altitude.
This causes the targeting radar to disregard the return. The radar,
looking for a moving aircraft does not identify the echo as a jet aircraft.
Meanwhile, the attacker is emitting radar seek signals, closing on the
target and being tracked by passive infrared. (and also giving a radar seek
signal vector)

I'm quite sure the Russians developed the maneuver to exploit our radar
weakness before we had any idea.

Pepperoni

"Pepperoni" wrote in message
...

"Michael Zaharis" wrote in message
...
xxxxxxxxxxx

I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
xxxxxxxxxxx

The maneuver is to pitch the aircraft into vertical flight and maintain a
constant altitude with the throttle. The aircraft has near zero airspeed,
and constant altitude.

This is not a good position to be in when a combat is taking
place, the phrase sitting duck comes to mind. Talk to any
combat pilot and he'll tell you energy is life. The pilot trying this
trick is a dead man.

This causes the targeting radar to disregard the return.

Horse****, radars have variable settings and they manage
to detect large stationary objetcs like airships very handily.

Additionally they have IR guided missiles which will happily
lock on to any heat source and a cannon who's shells
could care less.

The radar,
looking for a moving aircraft does not identify the echo as a jet
aircraft.
Meanwhile, the attacker is emitting radar seek signals, closing on the
target and being tracked by passive infrared. (and also giving a radar
seek
signal vector)


You aint tracking anything if you are joggling the throttle trying
this trick, its akin to balancing a beer bottle on your nose
and tring to fire a rifle at the same time and your radar
and weapons systems are pointing straight up into a
clear, and empty, blue sky. OOPS

I'm quite sure the Russians developed the maneuver to exploit our radar
weakness before we had any idea.


Russian built fighters have an exceedingly poor record against US
aircraft in the last 30 years or so. If the tried the trick you propose
the the US pilot ,ight die laughing but I doubt it.

Keith

"Pepperoni" wrote in message
...

"Michael Zaharis" wrote in message
...
xxxxxxxxxxx

I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
xxxxxxxxxxx

The maneuver is to pitch the aircraft into vertical flight and maintain a
constant altitude with the throttle. The aircraft has near zero airspeed,
and constant altitude.
This causes the targeting radar to disregard the return. The radar,
looking for a moving aircraft does not identify the echo as a jet
aircraft.
Meanwhile, the attacker is emitting radar seek signals, closing on the
target and being tracked by passive infrared. (and also giving a radar
seek
signal vector)

I'm quite sure the Russians developed the maneuver to exploit our radar
weakness before we had any idea.

I believe you would be wrong. The Sukhoi test pilot who was comenting in the
interview I read indicated it was a purely for show maneuver, and only
recieved later consideration as a tactical maneuver after the USAF expressed
some interest in it. Now you are left with a Russian Air Force that is lucky
to get enough flight hours for its pilots such that they can be relatively
safe in the conduct of takeoffs and landings--I'd eat my hat if you can show
where they are routinely practicing this maneuver for combat. And as has
been pointed out by numerous posters with real expertise in the field of ACM
(and I am not one of them), it leaves you in a real bind in terms of energy
(i.e., sitting duck).

Brooks


Pepperoni

"Pepperoni" wrote:


"Michael Zaharis" wrote in message
...
xxxxxxxxxxx

I remember reading about this one in AW&ST about this. This was,
interestingly enough, a strategy developed by some US Air Force people
who were researching potential threats. They came up with some sort of
a strategy where a SU-27 or derivative uses some Cobra-like maneuver to
drop the aircraft's velocity below the threshold set for the Doppler
radar to discriminate between ground and moving aerial targets. How you
would maintain that is fuzzy to me, but it seems that you'd have to
maintain some flight path that keeps you at a constant, or slightly
decreasing, radial distance from the aircraft trying to detect you.
xxxxxxxxxxx

The maneuver is to pitch the aircraft into vertical flight and maintain a
constant altitude with the throttle. The aircraft has near zero airspeed,
and constant altitude.
This causes the targeting radar to disregard the return. The radar,
looking for a moving aircraft does not identify the echo as a jet aircraft.
Meanwhile, the attacker is emitting radar seek signals, closing on the
target and being tracked by passive infrared. (and also giving a radar seek
signal vector)

I'm quite sure the Russians developed the maneuver to exploit our radar
weakness before we had any idea.

Pepperoni


Pepperoni you're just too cute for words...I'd like to pinch your
chubby little cheeks for you...and I want these nasty guys here
to leave you alone...
--

-Gord.