Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:55:32 PM UTC-5, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
I finally got to try a line finish in a contest at Hobbs last year.
In my opinion it is the safest option available...

Perhaps you were absent when a pilot blew a final glide from
the North, and landed on a street in a housing development
close to the airport?

See race day 7:
http://www.nadler.com/public/2013_Hobbs/2013_Hobbs.html

Some of us will make sure to have safe options,
but not all, and it cannot be legislated to cover
all conditions anyway...

On 01/22/2014 3:31 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
Perhaps you were absent when a pilot blew a final glide from
the North, and landed on a street in a housing development
close to the airport?

The pilot would have blown his final glide regardless unless you are
implying that a 500 foot cylinder 1 mile away from the airport would
have magically improves a gliders L/D... It doesn't matter whether we
are aiming for a point 50 feet AGL at the airport, 500 at 1 mile or 1200
at 4 miles we still have to calculate a proper final glide. I much
rather be aiming at the airport that I can see than some fictional point
in 3d space...

Luke

On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 3:56:06 PM UTC-5, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
...It doesn't matter whether we
are aiming for a point 50 feet AGL at the airport, 500 at 1 mile...

For those of us flying gliders who don't lose 450 feet/mile,
it makes a large difference ;-)

All this talk of "safety" and you post a picture you took of your
speedometer while driving at 72 MPH? And probably on a two lane road.
Sheesh...


"Dave Nadler" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:55:32 PM UTC-5, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
I finally got to try a line finish in a contest at Hobbs last year.
In my opinion it is the safest option available...

Perhaps you were absent when a pilot blew a final glide from
the North, and landed on a street in a housing development
close to the airport?

See race day 7:
http://www.nadler.com/public/2013_Hobbs/2013_Hobbs.html

Some of us will make sure to have safe options,
but not all, and it cannot be legislated to cover
all conditions anyway...

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:12:42 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
All this talk of "safety" and you post a picture you took of your speedometer while driving at 72 MPH? And probably on a two lane road. Sheesh...

Yeah. That is way too slow, Dave. I have taken pictures of the speedo at upwards of 100 MPH on two lane roads. Step it up, will ya?

Actually, Dan. Dave's picture was of the odometer. Just happens you also get to see the speedometer. :-)

Steve

If a 700ft finish is too low for a 18 meter national contest, then it is probably too low for a Regional. Yes, I understand the caveat of diving off a ridge and would not have a problem with that.

Last year at Perry and at Cordele, I was racing my Silent-IN, the 12 meter, 31/1 L/D.

We had 700 foot finishes at both sites. I understand this is comfortable for a modern 15 or 18 meter ship and leaves plenty of margin.

This does not leave much if any margin for me, and found that I needed to take extra height to be safe.

I am racing too, and this leaves us essentially racing to a different finish points. You are racing to a finish height that gives you an adequate safety margin and I am racing to the same point, but having to take more altitude for the same safety factor.

I understand UH's comment about immediately joining the pattern in an orderly fashion, but I think this could also be done with a 1000 foot finish and some more spoilers added.

This also gives a little more room is someone has a problem on landing and obstructs the runway.

Kevin
192

Good points Kevin.

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:01:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
If a 700ft finish is too low for a 18 meter national contest, then it is probably too low for a Regional. Yes, I understand the caveat of diving off a ridge and would not have a problem with that.



Last year at Perry and at Cordele, I was racing my Silent-IN, the 12 meter, 31/1 L/D.



We had 700 foot finishes at both sites. I understand this is comfortable for a modern 15 or 18 meter ship and leaves plenty of margin.



This does not leave much if any margin for me, and found that I needed to take extra height to be safe.



I am racing too, and this leaves us essentially racing to a different finish points. You are racing to a finish height that gives you an adequate safety margin and I am racing to the same point, but having to take more altitude for the same safety factor.



I understand UH's comment about immediately joining the pattern in an orderly fashion, but I think this could also be done with a 1000 foot finish and some more spoilers added.



This also gives a little more room is someone has a problem on landing and obstructs the runway.



Kevin

192

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:10:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Good points Kevin.



On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:01:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:

If a 700ft finish is too low for a 18 meter national contest, then it is probably too low for a Regional. Yes, I understand the caveat of diving off a ridge and would not have a problem with that.







Last year at Perry and at Cordele, I was racing my Silent-IN, the 12 meter, 31/1 L/D.







We had 700 foot finishes at both sites. I understand this is comfortable for a modern 15 or 18 meter ship and leaves plenty of margin.







This does not leave much if any margin for me, and found that I needed to take extra height to be safe.







I am racing too, and this leaves us essentially racing to a different finish points. You are racing to a finish height that gives you an adequate safety margin and I am racing to the same point, but having to take more altitude for the same safety factor.







I understand UH's comment about immediately joining the pattern in an orderly fashion, but I think this could also be done with a 1000 foot finish and some more spoilers added.







This also gives a little more room is someone has a problem on landing and obstructs the runway.







Kevin



192

To add to Kevin's point. I have seen some pilots take such a long down-wind turn to final that I could have turned inside of their pattern and had plenty of room. If I were in his glider, that would be a real problem for a short wing glider. A higher finish hurts no one as long as we are all going to the same finish. If we keep the pattern tight, low energy or lower L/D gliders have an easier time transitioning to pattern and landing.

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:01:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
If a 700ft finish is too low for a 18 meter national contest, then it is probably too low for a Regional. Yes, I understand the caveat of diving off a ridge and would not have a problem with that. Last year at Perry and at Cordele, I was racing my Silent-IN, the 12 meter, 31/1 L/D. We had 700 foot finishes at both sites. I understand this is comfortable for a modern 15 or 18 meter ship and leaves plenty of margin. This does not leave much if any margin for me, and found that I needed to take extra height to be safe. I am racing too, and this leaves us essentially racing to a different finish points. You are racing to a finish height that gives you an adequate safety margin and I am racing to the same point, but having to take more altitude for the same safety factor. I understand UH's comment about immediately joining the pattern in an orderly fashion, but I think this could also be done with a 1000 foot finish and some more spoilers added. This also gives a little more room is someone has a problem on landing and obstructs the runway. Kevin 192

I Fly an ASK-21 that has similar performance in a couple contests each year.. If the finish position and the pattern are such that I think we will need a bit more margin, I add it in the last couple miles and get on with it. That is part of what handicapped racing is about.
Most finishes set at 700 feet result in a bit more altitude available because few fly the finish perfectlyand most have some excess energy.
In any case, if pilots at a race have a concern about the finish height, the CD has the option to adjust it. That said, at a big contest like Perry, adjusting the finish and complicating the pattern for 65 gliders to accomodate 1 or 2 makes not too much sense.
UH

In any case, if pilots at a race have a concern about the finish height, the CD has the option to adjust it. That said, at a big contest like Perry, adjusting the finish and complicating the pattern for 65 gliders to accomodate 1 or 2 makes not too much sense.

UH

Wise from UH. There is way too much asking the rules committee to impose from on high things that you can just talk to the CD about.

But..700 feet is really 500 feet, and 500 feet, 40 knots, and one mile from the south or north is really uncomfortable even in 15 meters at Perry. I also don't agree with Hank's idea that too much altitude leads to traffic problems. More energy always good. The CD can suggest an extended pattern if youse don't know what to do with yourselves for a few hundred feet. So if anyone wants to ask for 1000 feet at Perry, you'll have another voice to agree with it.

John Cochrane