Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

Most racing pilots have clearly spoken that they feel it is fundamental unfair to make it home and not be given credit for completing the task.

Tim:

You're missing a basic point. When a finish cylinder is in effect, the task ends at the top of the finish cylinder, not at the home airport. "Making it home" does not mean "completing the task."

If you take off at the home airport and miss the start cylinder or start time, you do not get credit for completing the task, even though you took off at the same airport as everyone else and went around the same turnpoints. You may "feel" you should get credit, but you don't.

That's like saying you want credit for finishing a running race because, though you didn't go through the finish line with everyone else, you did make it to the locker room after the race.

Pilots may "feel" this way. I'm sure some pilots "felt" this way when rules were changed that you could not use your takeoff time rather than start time if you missed the gate. Sorry. The race is from start cylinder after start gate opens, through turnpoint cylinders, and to the finish cylinder. The start and finish cylinders have a maximum and minimum altitudes. That's the task, and where you land is pretty irrelevant to having completed the task.

Other pilots may "feel" that if they stopped in a half not rag to make it home at the finish height, it's unfair that some guy willing to bust his glider over the oil derrecks can still get speed points for floating in and pulling up over the fence.

Remember, all points are relative! To every pilot who gets ahead by squeaking in a low final glide for speed points, it is just the same as taking away points from the guys who don't do this stuff. If you're a competitive but also safety minded pilot, don't think about these structures as "how will they take points away from me." Think about it as "how will they keep some other guy from beating me by doing stupid stuff."

John Cochrane

On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:04:27 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Most racing pilots have clearly spoken that they feel it is fundamental unfair to make it home and not be given credit for completing the task.



Tim:



You're missing a basic point. When a finish cylinder is in effect, the task ends at the top of the finish cylinder, not at the home airport. "Making it home" does not mean "completing the task."



If you take off at the home airport and miss the start cylinder or start time, you do not get credit for completing the task, even though you took off at the same airport as everyone else and went around the same turnpoints.. You may "feel" you should get credit, but you don't.



That's like saying you want credit for finishing a running race because, though you didn't go through the finish line with everyone else, you did make it to the locker room after the race.



Pilots may "feel" this way. I'm sure some pilots "felt" this way when rules were changed that you could not use your takeoff time rather than start time if you missed the gate. Sorry. The race is from start cylinder after start gate opens, through turnpoint cylinders, and to the finish cylinder. The start and finish cylinders have a maximum and minimum altitudes. That's the task, and where you land is pretty irrelevant to having completed the task.



Other pilots may "feel" that if they stopped in a half not rag to make it home at the finish height, it's unfair that some guy willing to bust his glider over the oil derrecks can still get speed points for floating in and pulling up over the fence.



Remember, all points are relative! To every pilot who gets ahead by squeaking in a low final glide for speed points, it is just the same as taking away points from the guys who don't do this stuff. If you're a competitive but also safety minded pilot, don't think about these structures as "how will they take points away from me." Think about it as "how will they keep some other guy from beating me by doing stupid stuff."



John Cochrane

Actually John I do see the point, that is why I proposed a very simple solution that tries to deal with the perceived fairness issues of racing so that our rules are not too extreme.

We allow:

1. Missed start height or time below by using a penalty
2. Missed turn points with a penalty
3. Missed finish height with penalty

All of these could be removed and make it black or white, zero points for all errors. Does that encourage pilots to race? No we will just see more pack up early or not come at all.

Why?

Because a pure black and white system would be very discouraging to pilots for simple mistakes. We are all in this for the chicks or guys, and the money right?

Is anyone going to miss the finish gate on purpose? Absolutely not! Am I going to risk my glider and life for a few hundred points? No! I carry an extra 500 feet (or equivalent energy) if possible and burn it in the last few miles. It is not about someone willing to risk more than the others to win, anyone that flies like that will not win over a full contest. The price of error or risk/reward ratio is too high. Those are the hero or zero pilots that many of see at contests. Contest flying is about calculated risk and optimization, not risky flying.

The rules need to be as "simple as possible, but not simpler". All the convoluted scenarios you are trying to prevent is no longer simple and are not needed. You can not prevent all pilot error with a rule and there is no reason to. The 500 foot finish with a gradated penalty is enough. At roughly 5 points per minute I am not going to trade 45 minutes to come home with nothing left. But as others have said, is a simple mistake worth the penalties you are using to legislate your version of the perfect world?

The point that you don't seem to understand is most pilots see it as fair that if they get home they should get credit for finishing the task. This is purely a perception issue and why the new rules draw such a negative response from most pilots. It was clear at 15M/Open Nats that the rule was not popular among the pilots there.

TT

1. Missed start height or time below by using a penalty
2. Missed turn points with a penalty
3. Missed finish height with penalty

All of these could be removed and make it black or white, zero points for all errors. Does that encourage pilots to race? No we will just see more pack up early or not come at all.



A minor point here, especially to those of you who think the US should use IGC rules.

IGC rules give none of these graduated penalties. 1 meter out of the start gate? Tough, look harder next time. Miss a turnpoint by a meter? Tough again, you just landed. Airspace: real simple. One fix in, you landed. One fix a meter away, you're ok. None of this major penalty minor penalty stuff. Oh, and you can overfly airspace, just stay one meter above. Top is 17,999.99 not 17,500.

Participation isn't great everywhere, but not drastically worse than in the US. There is no international clamor to bring the US 10 pages of graduated penalty rules into IGC competition.

The idea that we need carefully structured graduated penalties so every pilot can nick every checkpoint with a foot to spare and all shall come home and all shall have prizes, or else people will stay away from contests in droves, just doesn't bear out in the facts. Most new pilots are completely unaware of these rules anyway. Actually, as we have seen, most experienced pilots are pretty foggy on the complex penalty structure too! Quick quiz: Just how many points per foot do you lose if you miss a turnpoint?

I will admit, one meter above the airport fence and you get speed points, you're ok, even if there is a truck in the way, and that too has limited effects on participation. Safety is only loosely related to participation, especially where, as in most responses to this thread, the vast majority of pilots can tell themselves that only bozos would do this stuff and they're immune. But there are reasons other than participation for rules not to dangle hundreds of points in front of pilots for doing stupid stuff.

John Cochrane