Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

On 01/24/2014 9:56 AM, wrote:
But..700 feet is really 500 feet, and 500 feet, 40 knots, and one mile from the south or north is really uncomfortable even in 15 meters at Perry.

Why are you coming in at 40kts? Is it perhaps because you made a bad
decision earlier in the flight and didn't stop for a climb, or were
running to hot and realized it too late? If you know you will be
uncomfortable don't fly to the minimums........

Luke

Why are you coming in at 40kts? Is it perhaps because you made a bad
decision earlier in the flight and didn't stop for a climb, or were
running to hot and realized it too late? If you know you will be
uncomfortable don't fly to the minimums........


Luke

Once again, real slow.

The problem with finishes does not occur when things work out as planned, and we bash home at 100 knots. Well, yes, actually, there were plenty of brain fade after finish problems, but that wasn't the real motivation for moving things up.

And yes, every sane pilot tanks up and doesn't set out across the woods separating himself from home until he has a decent energy reserve. Nobody plans to arrive at 500 feet and 40 knots.

But, welcome to soaring. Sometimes things don't work out as planned. 20 miles out, you had Mc 3 and 500 feet. But now it's 10 miles out, you found a lot of sink, and you're down to Mc 0 and 100 feet, about 2000' AGL. It looks like a few fields ahead. Keep going? Well, there are all those great stories of hero pilots who pulled up over the fence and made it.

And now, despite all your great planning, you're 5 miles out, Mc 0 + 100 feet. 750 feet AGL. You're doing great in the contest so far. Last field below. Trees ahead. Hero stories ringing in your ears. You know they'd do it -- they've said so a hundred times. This is how contests are won, no? Are you really going to stop, with 750 feet still remaining, while the computer says you can make it?

Maybe yes. I have known a lot of pilots who made the decision to throw away a nationals in this circumstance and land. I have. I know a lot of pilots who went for it, and made it, and were heroes. I know a few pilots who went for it and did not make it.

In any case, if you do it, you are going to fly at best glide -- 53 knots, and then end up stretching the glide over the cylinder by gently slowing down to 40 knots.

Recognize that this is a very tough decision. If you just say "I won't be tempted" you are in deep, deep denial, totally fooling yourself and ripe to make the wrong decision. Think very very hard about this little coffin corner before you get there, have a set of quantitative guidelines ready. Pilots who get this right do it by knowing they will be tempted and guarding against that.

To your point, it does not matter how good your earlier decisions are, how conservatively you start your final glide. This situation will come to you sooner or later. It came to me once after leaving the last thermal 1500 feet over Mc 3. I landed one mile out, in the last good field, with everyone watching. I had 300 feet at that last field, but it was nothing but houses and powerlines to the airport.

Now, once we're honest with ourselves and realize how tough this decision is, how tempting it will be to continue, and how much going for it is part of the racing tradition and important toolkit of contest-winning pilots who aim to win nationals and worlds... How about we move the whole affair up 500 feet?

John Cochrane

snip...

How about we move the whole affair up 500 feet?



John Cochrane

Completely agree with moving it up 500 feet, in the old days, if you arrived 6 ft below the hard deck (the ground), you stayed there....

However having the 500ft floor only in the finish cylinder, with all the speed points at risk, does seem to incentivize low thermaling in an area that has high concentration of (perhaps) head down pilots. The pilot might even feel more comfortable trying to climb there due to the proximity of the airport.

Here is a suggestion, put the 500 ft hard deck out to 4 miles. Once you make your 4 mile call you are over a hard deck. You still need to come into the finish cylinder, everything remains the same, but once you fall under the 500 ft hard deck your done, join the landing traffic. If your final glide is marginal, and you think this is likely, you will want to stop and try to climb outside the hard deck, where the increased radius will help spread out the traffic.

The decision to thermal at 500ft AGL is the same at the finish sector, out on course or attempting to thermal out from a relight near the airport. It's irrelevant where this is taking place. If this is affecting finishing gliders, I suggest to move the finish up to 1000ft so that if there is really someone who is trying to thermal up at 500ft AGL, that there is enough separation that he does not affect the incoming traffic.

If you want a hard-deck 4 miles out to prevent pilots from electing bad judgement and thermalling low near the airport, then why is it okay to do so 5 miles from the finish? Or 50 miles from the finish to not land-out? I don't necessarily support the hard-deck nor am I opposed to it, but if you follow this sort of logic presented, that's a great reason to have a harddeck completely around the whole task area. The decision to thermal at 500ft is still the same decision, no matter where the pilot is.

Best Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

And lastly while I am on a roll, this graduated penalty stuff is really bizarre, especially with respect to turnpoints, followed by starts and finishes. I understand that 25 years ago that the GPS loggers were much less accurate and a one mile leeway for hitting the turnpoint may have been necessary.. Nowadays, the vast majority of pilots have displays on their logging systems which clearly show if they hit the turnpoint or not. Even the ancient Colibri that I have used as my IGC logger beeps when the turnpoint is touched. The one mile leeway we have is insane! To save two miles on hitting the turnpoint and taking a penalty is a very valuable tactical decision and rules should not affect tactical decisions in this way. Bottom line, I think this should be ended.

For starts, most people have stopwatches, or some other form of clock. Furthermore, no one has ever said that you must wait exactly two minutes and go.. Why shouldn't a pilot stay say 3 minutes as an added safety factor? It would be more beneficial to simplify the rules and make 2 minutes the defining factor.

With respect to starts and finishes, I think there should be 50ft of leeway given, but with 1 point per foot. A MINIMUM altitude is intended to be the floor or the ground. In the past, you could not finish under the ground. With 50ft of leeway given in starts/finishes, this could account for most instrument errors with a simple penalty system that does not require understanding a long formula.

Best Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

On Friday, January 24, 2014 11:51:28 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The decision to thermal at 500ft AGL is the same at the finish sector, out on course or attempting to thermal out from a relight near the airport.

snip...


Daniel, I had the same thought, but really I think there is a difference between having a hard deck out on course or having one just in the "prep for landing zone". I have been guilty of low save attempts, some successful, some not, some in contests, some not. But when I have attempted them, I was alone with each turn pointed at a final into an airport or field. Having someone try it near the finish cylinder is undesirable not for their own safety (well that too) but for the safety of others. Giving a 400 pt "bonus" for pulling it off, does not seem like the right thing to do. Extending the floor of the finish cylinder out some reasonable distance, would remove the incentive to save a "land out at the airport" near the airport. I would note that the suggestion of increasing the size of the finish cylinder accomplishes the same thing, but perhaps makes the pattern entry of the landing traffic less predictable.

RR

Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:52:32 AM UTC-8, Craig R. wrote:
Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....


What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.

What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.

Wow. This whole thread is fascinating - I'm looking at flying my first competitions this season, and finding I'm in way over my head. My comments are a bit off the main thread, but relevant to me and perhaps others that aren't competition pros.

The idea of thermaling at 500' AGL or lower is beyond my comprehension at this point in my soaring career, and entering a landing pattern at 500' - 700' from a mile out contrary to all my student piloting lessons (even though I can calculate that it is readily doable in my glider).

The rules themselves seem straightforward, even though I have little idea of how they play out in a contest. And the start and finish cylinder concepts seem straightforward. All I'm really interested in for my first tries is finishing each day, flying safely, not doing anything stupid, leaving plenty of margin, scoring some points, and having a challenge and fun (i.e. wanting to do it again).

I expect as time goes on, flying more contests will lead to my learning and appreciating the strategies and tactics discussed in a lot of this thread - but my main concerns are whether the current rules are in fact safe for a neophyte to contests and a relatively low-timer. From the discussions, I'm not getting a clear sense of whether they are or not (specifically as related to the finish).

I understand we are all subject to sometimes making dumb decisions, or the weather making our plans (and margins) vanish - but the rules should basically enable safe flying in contests, even accounting to some degree the wide variance in risk different pilots are willing to take under varying circumstances. Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in contests. I have to assume they do since the fatality rate doesn't seem to be something that draws headline attention.

Eric Bick

On Friday, January 24, 2014 12:52:06 PM UTC-6, Eric Bick (1DB) wrote:


What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.



Wow. This whole thread is fascinating - I'm looking at flying my first competitions this season, and finding I'm in way over my head. My comments are a bit off the main thread, but relevant to me and perhaps others that aren't competition pros.



The idea of thermaling at 500' AGL or lower is beyond my comprehension at this point in my soaring career, and entering a landing pattern at 500' - 700' from a mile out contrary to all my student piloting lessons (even though I can calculate that it is readily doable in my glider).



The rules themselves seem straightforward, even though I have little idea of how they play out in a contest. And the start and finish cylinder concepts seem straightforward. All I'm really interested in for my first tries is finishing each day, flying safely, not doing anything stupid, leaving plenty of margin, scoring some points, and having a challenge and fun (i.e. wanting to do it again).



I expect as time goes on, flying more contests will lead to my learning and appreciating the strategies and tactics discussed in a lot of this thread - but my main concerns are whether the current rules are in fact safe for a neophyte to contests and a relatively low-timer. From the discussions, I'm not getting a clear sense of whether they are or not (specifically as related to the finish).



I understand we are all subject to sometimes making dumb decisions, or the weather making our plans (and margins) vanish - but the rules should basically enable safe flying in contests, even accounting to some degree the wide variance in risk different pilots are willing to take under varying circumstances. Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in contests. I have to assume they do since the fatality rate doesn't seem to be something that draws headline attention.



Eric Bick

Eric,

The minimum finish height is a minimum and there is no maximum. So there is no reason that the rules regarding the finish especially should force you into an unsafe position unless you choose to go there personally.

I have only flown 4 contests but I think I can count on 1 hand how many times i've finished anywhere close to the minimum. Usually my problem is just getting down. 3 of those four have been at sites without particularly inviting landable terrain near the airport (Llano, TX and Moriarty). I was at my first contest in Llano and didn't really know how to use the final glide stuff on my Oudie anyway and finished ridiculously high most days. At Moriarty I usually wouldn't set out on final glide unless I had a 1000 or 1500 foot pad over minimum to hopefully account for dynamic air on the final glide.. I can think of at least one time in Moriarty where that wasn't enough. At Llano I landed out one day after finding a nice river of sink on the final glide.

Your approach is smart and should lead to years of fun flying contests. I take a similar approach: don't do anything i wouldn't do in "normal" flying, bring the glider back in one piece, have fun, etc. and I have had a great time so far.