Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:52:32 AM UTC-8, Craig R. wrote:
Or perhaps we just give the folks that are pushing for a rolling finish what they want and let Darwinism deal with them. Caveat; if you cut me off in the pattern, if I have to do evasive maneuvers to avoid you within the finish cylinder, if you jeopardize my safety in the pattern in any way, or if you jeopardize the safety of someone on the ground, then you are summarily tossed from the contest.....


What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.

What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.

Wow. This whole thread is fascinating - I'm looking at flying my first competitions this season, and finding I'm in way over my head. My comments are a bit off the main thread, but relevant to me and perhaps others that aren't competition pros.

The idea of thermaling at 500' AGL or lower is beyond my comprehension at this point in my soaring career, and entering a landing pattern at 500' - 700' from a mile out contrary to all my student piloting lessons (even though I can calculate that it is readily doable in my glider).

The rules themselves seem straightforward, even though I have little idea of how they play out in a contest. And the start and finish cylinder concepts seem straightforward. All I'm really interested in for my first tries is finishing each day, flying safely, not doing anything stupid, leaving plenty of margin, scoring some points, and having a challenge and fun (i.e. wanting to do it again).

I expect as time goes on, flying more contests will lead to my learning and appreciating the strategies and tactics discussed in a lot of this thread - but my main concerns are whether the current rules are in fact safe for a neophyte to contests and a relatively low-timer. From the discussions, I'm not getting a clear sense of whether they are or not (specifically as related to the finish).

I understand we are all subject to sometimes making dumb decisions, or the weather making our plans (and margins) vanish - but the rules should basically enable safe flying in contests, even accounting to some degree the wide variance in risk different pilots are willing to take under varying circumstances. Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in contests. I have to assume they do since the fatality rate doesn't seem to be something that draws headline attention.

Eric Bick

On Friday, January 24, 2014 12:52:06 PM UTC-6, Eric Bick (1DB) wrote:


What everyone is blowing off is that the finish is NOT about YOU and having a thrill at the finish, but the safety of the other pilots and ground personnel that your actions impact. Let's keep our eye on that ball.



Wow. This whole thread is fascinating - I'm looking at flying my first competitions this season, and finding I'm in way over my head. My comments are a bit off the main thread, but relevant to me and perhaps others that aren't competition pros.



The idea of thermaling at 500' AGL or lower is beyond my comprehension at this point in my soaring career, and entering a landing pattern at 500' - 700' from a mile out contrary to all my student piloting lessons (even though I can calculate that it is readily doable in my glider).



The rules themselves seem straightforward, even though I have little idea of how they play out in a contest. And the start and finish cylinder concepts seem straightforward. All I'm really interested in for my first tries is finishing each day, flying safely, not doing anything stupid, leaving plenty of margin, scoring some points, and having a challenge and fun (i.e. wanting to do it again).



I expect as time goes on, flying more contests will lead to my learning and appreciating the strategies and tactics discussed in a lot of this thread - but my main concerns are whether the current rules are in fact safe for a neophyte to contests and a relatively low-timer. From the discussions, I'm not getting a clear sense of whether they are or not (specifically as related to the finish).



I understand we are all subject to sometimes making dumb decisions, or the weather making our plans (and margins) vanish - but the rules should basically enable safe flying in contests, even accounting to some degree the wide variance in risk different pilots are willing to take under varying circumstances. Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in contests. I have to assume they do since the fatality rate doesn't seem to be something that draws headline attention.



Eric Bick

Eric,

The minimum finish height is a minimum and there is no maximum. So there is no reason that the rules regarding the finish especially should force you into an unsafe position unless you choose to go there personally.

I have only flown 4 contests but I think I can count on 1 hand how many times i've finished anywhere close to the minimum. Usually my problem is just getting down. 3 of those four have been at sites without particularly inviting landable terrain near the airport (Llano, TX and Moriarty). I was at my first contest in Llano and didn't really know how to use the final glide stuff on my Oudie anyway and finished ridiculously high most days. At Moriarty I usually wouldn't set out on final glide unless I had a 1000 or 1500 foot pad over minimum to hopefully account for dynamic air on the final glide.. I can think of at least one time in Moriarty where that wasn't enough. At Llano I landed out one day after finding a nice river of sink on the final glide.

Your approach is smart and should lead to years of fun flying contests. I take a similar approach: don't do anything i wouldn't do in "normal" flying, bring the glider back in one piece, have fun, etc. and I have had a great time so far.

On 01/24/2014 1:52 PM, Eric Bick (1DB) wrote:
Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in contests.


In short, they do. Come fly a contest, use your best judgement as pilot
in command to be safe, learn a ton and have fun.

These winter discussions stem from differences in opinion. Some people
find it unacceptable that the rules don't prevent each and every pilot
from making mistakes, so they want to make a rule that covers every
single possibility, I on the other hand believe that the responsibility
lies with the guy behind the controls.

Luke Szczepaniak

Some people find it unacceptable that the rules don't prevent each and
every pilot from making mistakes, so they want to make a rule that covers every
single possibility, I on the other hand believe that the responsibility
lies with the guy behind the controls.

Luke Szczepaniak

For about the 150th time, the finish rule (nor the RC philosophy behind it) does NOT attempt to "prevent pilots from making mistakes", "cover every single possibility" "legislate safety" or take any "responsibility" away from the PIC. The rules (and law) state explicitly that the PIC is responsible for all safety decisions.

The finish rule is designed to remove what was a strong temptation to unsafe behavior, and put decision making back in the pilots' hands. Befo 400 points if you can squeak over the quarry and clear the fence. Now: same points either way, you make the decision. Who is telling who what to do? Who is taking away responsibility?

I'm getting grumpy, because this calumny just keeps getting repeated over and over. And answered over and over.

John Cochrane

On 01/24/2014 3:56 PM, wrote:
I'm getting grumpy, because this calumny just keeps getting repeated over and over. And answered over and over.

This will continue as long as we have a difference of opinion. It is
your prerogative to fly the task in a manner deemed safe by you, I
respect that. Do you respect the fact that 4/3 majority of contest
pilots in the poll disagree with the rule? Are we a statistical anomaly
to be thrown out, perhaps we are just dumb thrill seekers looking for a
quick way out? Maybe you can word the question better next year to get
a more favourable response.

Luke Szczepaniak

In article ,
"Eric Bick (1DB)" wrote:

.

Wow. This whole thread is fascinating - I'm looking at flying my first
competitions this season, and finding I'm in way over my head. My comments
are a bit off the main thread, but relevant to me and perhaps others that
aren't competition pros.

The idea of thermaling at 500' AGL or lower is beyond my comprehension at
this point in my soaring career, and entering a landing pattern at 500' -
700' from a mile out contrary to all my student piloting lessons (even though
I can calculate that it is readily doable in my glider).

The rules themselves seem straightforward, even though I have little idea of
how they play out in a contest. And the start and finish cylinder concepts
seem straightforward. All I'm really interested in for my first tries is
finishing each day, flying safely, not doing anything stupid, leaving plenty
of margin, scoring some points, and having a challenge and fun (i.e. wanting
to do it again).

I expect as time goes on, flying more contests will lead to my learning and
appreciating the strategies and tactics discussed in a lot of this thread -
but my main concerns are whether the current rules are in fact safe for a
neophyte to contests and a relatively low-timer. From the discussions, I'm
not getting a clear sense of whether they are or not (specifically as related
to the finish).

I understand we are all subject to sometimes making dumb decisions, or the
weather making our plans (and margins) vanish - but the rules should
basically enable safe flying in contests, even accounting to some degree the
wide variance in risk different pilots are willing to take under varying
circumstances. Reassure me that the rules do enable basically safe flying in
contests. I have to assume they do since the fatality rate doesn't seem to be
something that draws headline attention.

Eric Bick

Hi Eric,

You are gonna love contest flying. I look at a contest as a way to go
spend a week flying cross country with a few dozen of my best friends, a
bunch of people around just to make sure I have great time with tow
availability guaranteed on a predictable schedule, weather forecasting
and tasking done for me, food and drink arranged if I want it, evening
socializing, retrieve crew spring-loaded. Sometimes the weather even
cooperates for a truly great day. What could be better?

As far as taking risks: How much are you willing to risk to win a little
bronze coin and your matchbook sized portrait in the December issue of
SOARING? Not much? Same here. Rules or not, fly to have fun and live to
fly again.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Hello Eric, and other non-contest pilots.

Don't be put off from contest flying by the Winter rantings and discussions of rules Minutia.

99% of the time Race rules are very simple. Start below a certain height, fly to all the turn points and finish above a the designated height.
Have fun, you will probably fly to destinations and distance you might not otherwise fly to.

Like another poster said it is basically a week of flying with a bunch other glider pilots who happen to be flying a similar course.

Brian

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:15:46 PM UTC-8, Brian wrote:
Hello Eric, and other non-contest pilots.



Don't be put off from contest flying by the Winter rantings and discussions of rules Minutia.



99% of the time Race rules are very simple. Start below a certain height, fly to all the turn points and finish above a the designated height.

Have fun, you will probably fly to destinations and distance you might not otherwise fly to.



Like another poster said it is basically a week of flying with a bunch other glider pilots who happen to be flying a similar course.



Brian

Being totally a racing neophyte, what I'm wondering is why so much discussion about complexities, or rather, why such complexities to discuss? Racing would seem to be a simple concept - start/fly the course/finish. Basic safety and points rules are necessary. Beyond that, first to finish is winner.

There would be more points associated with finishing than landing out going really fast - crossing the finish line is what counts. You run different classes to account for performance differences, but everyone within a class is on an equal handicap (none) basis. Start and finish lines are lines to be crossed in a specified direction, and don't have to be takeoff or landing field (to enable multiple planes abreast dashes to finish). (Maybe this is touching on GP format, not sure.) Basic idea is that racing means who is fastest around a course.

Whole point is "simpler is better." Tactics and strategies still enter in, but for getting across the line first. I'm looking at badge flying where turnpoints are made or not. Doesn't matter how far past a turn point you fly, either you make it or you don't. Make the turn points, you get the badge. Miss one by a meter, you don't. Only finish height rule is loss of height penalty - start/finish. Otherwise, totally up to pilot.

And why are the races on closed courses each day? Why not Field A to Field B day one; Field B to Field C day 2; and final day Field N to Field A? Maybe some logistical challenges, but might add some challenge and interest.

All these questions/comments probably are a different thread, but what the heck - it's winter ... even in SoCal it's winter (sort of).

Can't wait to try my first contest this spring ... fly it like you say - start/fly course/finish per rules - massage the complexities during the winter.