FES - Take 2

At 09:08 17 February 2014, waremark wrote:
What makes you say motorgliders crash more?

In the words of Watty "There is no crash like a turbo crash"

The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................?

Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place?
:) JJ

On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:40:22 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:
The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................? Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place? :) JJ

Nope- The airport bonus is a scoring incentive to encourage pilots to land safely at an airport instead of gliding on to land in a field to get more distance points.
UH

On Monday, February 17, 2014 6:00:24 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:40:22 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:

The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................? Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place? :) JJ



Nope- The airport bonus is a scoring incentive to encourage pilots to land safely at an airport instead of gliding on to land in a field to get more distance points.



OK, the MG "glides on" to get more distance points, but gets an airport bonus anyway................. What it his engine doesn't start? Just trying to understand the RC thinking.
JJ

On Monday, February 17, 2014 9:07:43 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Monday, February 17, 2014 6:00:24 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:40:22 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote: The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................? Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place? :) JJ Nope- The airport bonus is a scoring incentive to encourage pilots to land safely at an airport instead of gliding on to land in a field to get more distance points. OK, the MG "glides on" to get more distance points, but gets an airport bonus anyway................. What it his engine doesn't start? Just trying to understand the RC thinking. JJ

MG has to do engine start within prescribed distance of the airport and he is effectively landed there as if he was a glider, as I understand it.
He doesn't get more distance, but does have the benefit of the bonus and avoiding a retrieve.
I would have pushed back hard on this, buit don't serve on the RC any more.
Grumpy
UH

He doesn't get more distance, but does have the benefit of the bonus and avoiding a retrieve.

I would have pushed back hard on this, buit don't serve on the RC any more.

Grumpy

UH

The rule: MG can get a 25 point airport bonus if he starts his engine within 2 miles of a qualifying airport AND at 1,000 feet AGL or greater. If you want to pull out your engine on final, you won't get the bonus.

Why? The airport bonus for regular gliders is designed as a mild safety incentive. It usually works out that you are better off stopping if you're below about 1,500' rather than glide straight in to a field like the good old days.

The MG pilots made a persuasive case that the same safety incentive should be offered to them. Rather than, as JJ suggests, glide straight over unlandable terrain and pull out the iron horse at 200', 25 points suggests that you deviate towards an airport, and pull out the engine at a reasonable altitude. The latter decision especially has been the cause of many MG accidents.

Now, before everyone goes all safety-nazi and "legislate safety" on me, recall we do this for regular gliders. If you accept the principle of a small points bonus for deviating to an airport for regular gliders, it certainly makes sense to offer it to motor gliders. If you don't accept the principle, then it makes sense to abolish the airport bonus for all gliders.

Why not do it? As UH points out, MG "avoid a retrieve." Resistance to the MG bonus came mostly from pilots who see that MG have a definite competitive advantage in avoiding the exhaustion of retrieves, and denying them the bonus is a back door way to sneak in a little bit of a MG handicap penalty.

But that really doesn't make sense. Our official philosophy is we handicap based on aerodynamics. A uniform 1-2% handicap for a motor to offset this no-landout advantage might make sense, but then let's do it forthrightly and openly, not by means of the airport landing bonus. Also, MG could get the bonus by landing. Self-launchers could then take off and avoid the retrieve.. So the "penalty" only applied to turbos.

In sum: it surely makes sense to offer the same airport landing incentive to motor operation that we do to non-motor operations. And if it makes sense to add 1-2% handicap for retrieve avoidance, let's do that out in the open as a separate issue.

The one snag that our discussion brought up: Airport databases are incomplete, many "airports" are nonexistent or unsafe, and coordinates are not always accurate. For this rule, and many other reasons, paying a little bit of attention to the outlanding database before contests makes a lot of sense.


John Cochrane

While we're at it maybe pilots with crews should get a penalty in their handicap too. After all having a dedicated crew gives them an obvious but unmeasurable advantage over their crewless peers and thats just unfair!

On Monday, February 17, 2014 9:00:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:40:22 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:
The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................? Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place? :) JJ

Nope- The airport bonus is a scoring incentive to encourage pilots to land safely at an airport instead of gliding on to land in a field to get more distance points.
UH

Hank,you're wrong.g
With current rules it is better to risk to damage glider and land out just 2 miles off field than coming home from same position with only 200 ft extra on final.
You get more points this way(look at last day of club class nat in Mifflin,I made my point to prove it)
keRW

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:32:22 AM UTC-4, RW wrote:
On Monday, February 17, 2014 9:00:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:40:22 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:
The proposed rule change allows a MG to claim an airport bonus without actually overflying the bonus airport. The new rule only requires he show that he had sufficient altitude to glide to the approved airport, at the time of engine start. The airport bonus is given as an incentive to land at a safe airport and not attempt a shaky glide towards the next turn point. Question; What if the engine doesn't start? Not an uncommon occurrence out west where high altitude cold-soaks the engine. If the engine didn't start as the MG overflew the bonus airport, it would be a non event. If the engine fails to start half way down final glide...................? Doesn't the proposed rule change negate the reason for giving an airport bonus in the first place? :) JJ

Nope- The airport bonus is a scoring incentive to encourage pilots to land safely at an airport instead of gliding on to land in a field to get more distance points.
UH

Hank,you're wrong.g
With current rules it is better to risk to damage glider and land out just 2 miles off field than coming home from same position with only 200 ft extra on final.
You get more points this way(look at last day of club class nat in Mifflin,I made my point to prove it)
keRW

Argh. I'm not ready for Winter.

T8