Does anyone use a tug tow hook that releases automatically whenglider kites?

I hear you on the low tow, GC. It is another of those perceptions of "It isn't what we do, so it must be dangerous." Agree that it will change the dynamics involved, as well. Did Australia go to low tow to prevent kiting, or was it for some other reason and that was a side benefit? I know that high tow increases the trim drag on the towplane, and low tow reduces it, so on low powered towplanes, this can be the difference between climbing and not. With America tending to be a land of excess (horsepower in our towplanes), it is seldom an issue.

So, I am curious. Was the change made to improve climb rates and you just have not seen kiting events in Australia, or was there a significant kiting problem, and low tow was determined to be a solution? No, I am not being snide or snarky, I do not know and would like ot learn.

Eyes and ears open, willing to learn.

Steve Leonard

On Sunday, February 23, 2014 10:00:51 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
I hear you on the low tow, GC. It is another of those perceptions of "It isn't what we do, so it must be dangerous." Agree that it will change the dynamics involved, as well. Did Australia go to low tow to prevent kiting, or was it for some other reason and that was a side benefit? I know that high tow increases the trim drag on the towplane, and low tow reduces it, so on low powered towplanes, this can be the difference between climbing and not. With America tending to be a land of excess (horsepower in our towplanes), it is seldom an issue. So, I am curious. Was the change made to improve climb rates and you just have not seen kiting events in Australia, or was there a significant kiting problem, and low tow was determined to be a solution? No, I am not being snide or snarky, I do not know and would like ot learn. Eyes and ears open, willing to learn. Steve Leonard

I'll speak for one operation in US using low tow.
1- Reduced trim drag- glider is on the thrust line of the tug.
2-Easier to fly and teach due to visual picture being good and getting near the wake gives feel of vertical tail touching the wake allowing minor correction to stay away. In high tow the fuselage and wing get in first acusing a bit more disturbance to the glider attitude.
3- Many students fly the tow without help on their first try. I doubt that happens much in high (normal) tow.
4- Almost never get slack rope because descending position is easily seen. We have to go out of our way to teach slack rope correction.
5- No broken ropes.
6- No affect on attitude of tug due to rope reduces tug pilot workload.
7- Glider is not in the wake on takeoff because ground effect dissipates the wake below about 1 wing span.
8- I have not heard of any dead tug pilots in low tow.

Flame suit on
UH

I'm confused by a couple of statements in this thread...

1) "Low tow prevents kiting"
Doesn't the kiting event often happen in early take-off,
just as glider is leaving the ground, and before low-tow
is established???

2) "Nose hook prevents kiting"
Didn't we have at least one fatal accident in USA
with a nosehook (L-13 IIRCC)??? Others???
Anybody have any facts (Yes, I know, its RAS, but...)???
I'm not saying nose-hooks don't help, however...

But then, I'm easily confused...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

On 2/23/2014 10:23 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
I'm confused by a couple of statements in this thread...

1) "Low tow prevents kiting"
Doesn't the kiting event often happen in early take-off,
just as glider is leaving the ground, and before low-tow
is established???

2) "Nose hook prevents kiting"
Didn't we have at least one fatal accident in USA
with a nosehook (L-13 IIRCC)??? Others???
Anybody have any facts (Yes, I know, its RAS, but...)???
I'm not saying nose-hooks don't help, however...

But then, I'm easily confused...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave


To me, "kiting" is a dynamic event initiated by a pull on the "kite line",
geometrical effects then combining to result in the glider ascending up the
arc of the line despite Joe Pilot's subsequent full-forward stick inputs. How
the glider gets into the position where it can kite might be (say) on a winch
launch (think CG-hook-equipped Ka-6, K-8, Nimbus II [Dick Johnson]), or (say)
on an aerotow where Joe Pilot (for some reason) puts in a quick, ill-advised
aft stick, thus presenting the belly of the CG-hook-equipped glider to the
free stream airflow.

By this definition, "kiting" is distinct from Joe Pilot simply getting out of
position above the towplane for any other reason (say, inattention).

I've the same question as you regarding 1) above...

As for 2) I'm satisfied an incompetent or inattentive Joe Pilot can yank a tug
into a dive regardless of the type of hook the glider has. Which conclusion is
100% independent (IMO) of the "kiting" issue.

Bob W.

On 24/02/2014 04:23, Dave Nadler wrote:
I'm confused by a couple of statements in this thread...

1) "Low tow prevents kiting"
Doesn't the kiting event often happen in early take-off,
just as glider is leaving the ground, and before low-tow
is established???

I don't know. We haven't had enough recent kiting accidents in Oz to know.


2) "Nose hook prevents kiting"
Didn't we have at least one fatal accident in USA
with a nosehook (L-13 IIRCC)??? Others???
Anybody have any facts (Yes, I know, its RAS, but...)???
I'm not saying nose-hooks don't help, however...

So what ARE you saying? Swallows, summer? Just stirring the pot?

Dave, I'm well aware of the much yada yada on r.a.s. regarding low/high
tow of which you've been part. I'm not going to be drawn into it. As I
said, a lot of it appears to me to be based on personality in the form
of "real men fly high tow - and they do it on CG hooks!"

I only wanted to say that if kiting is a problem, nose hooks and low tow
will reduce it to insignificance. If those practices are not worth
adopting, kiting's not a real problem.

GC

But then, I'm easily confused...
....just keep taking the tablets like I told you...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

At 04:40 24 February 2014, GC wrote:
On 24/02/2014 04:23, Dave Nadler wrote:
I'm confused by a couple of statements in this thread...

1) "Low tow prevents kiting"
Doesn't the kiting event often happen in early take-off,
just as glider is leaving the ground, and before low-tow
is established???

Yes, it does, but only on a C of G hook.


I don't know. We haven't had enough recent kiting accidents in Oz to
know.


2) "Nose hook prevents kiting"
Didn't we have at least one fatal accident in USA
with a nosehook (L-13 IIRCC)??? Others???
Anybody have any facts (Yes, I know, its RAS, but...)???
I'm not saying nose-hooks don't help, however...

So what ARE you saying? Swallows, summer? Just stirring the pot?

Dave, I'm well aware of the much yada yada on r.a.s. regarding low/high
tow of which you've been part. I'm not going to be drawn into it. As I
said, a lot of it appears to me to be based on personality in the form
of "real men fly high tow - and they do it on CG hooks!"

I only wanted to say that if kiting is a problem, nose hooks and low tow
will reduce it to insignificance. If those practices are not worth
adopting, kiting's not a real problem.

GC

But then, I'm easily confused...
....just keep taking the tablets like I told you...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

Can we just not agree that the use of low tow and the non use of CoG hooks
for aerotowing reduce the likelihood of a kiting event occurring?

The available evidence may show that neither will completely prevent the
occurrence but there is evidence to show that there is an apparent
reduction in occurrence. Complete eradication might be the ideal but
reduction is a start in the right direction.

There is a lot to be said for studying "Best Practice" but you have to act
on it. If you are used to high tow I would be the first to admit that low
tow looks weird but it is much more stable and requires much less work to
keep the proper position. It appears to me that people are saying that out
of position in low tow is a much less serious situation that out of
position in high tow (too low is better than too high)

Not very relevant to the discussion, but on one occasion a long time ago, I
was on the long rope (low tow) of a dual tow going up to do a formation
aerobatic display at an airshow. The glider I was in was a Pilatus B4
which only had a C of G hook (this was 1974 some years before the tests
described earlier).

Approaching the release point, the tow-plane ran into strong lift under a
small Cb that had drifted in over the airfield. He throttled back and
lowered the nose to avoid being sucked up into the cloud (and Heathrow's
airspace). Both gliders started to catch up with the tow plane and
developed slack lines. I didn't release because I didn't want to have my
rope wrap around the other glider on the short rope and he hadn't released.
Almost at once my rope back-released and the rings, flailing about,
smashed a large hole in the canopy and put a medium sized dent in the
wing.

Not an arguement against low-tows with a single glider I agree.

At 09:14 24 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
Can we just not agree that the use of low tow and the non use of CoG
hooks
for aerotowing reduce the likelihood of a kiting event occurring?

The available evidence may show that neither will completely prevent the
occurrence but there is evidence to show that there is an apparent
reduction in occurrence. Complete eradication might be the ideal but
reduction is a start in the right direction.

There is a lot to be said for studying "Best Practice" but you have to
act
on it. If you are used to high tow I would be the first to admit that low
tow looks weird but it is much more stable and requires much less work to
keep the proper position. It appears to me that people are saying that
out
of position in low tow is a much less serious situation that out of
position in high tow (too low is better than too high)

At 09:14 24 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
Can we just not agree that the use of low tow and the non use
of CoG hooks
for aerotowing reduce the likelihood of a kiting event
occurring?

The available evidence may show that neither will completely
prevent the
occurrence but there is evidence to show that there is an
apparent
reduction in occurrence. Complete eradication might be the
ideal but
reduction is a start in the right direction.

There is a lot to be said for studying "Best Practice" but you
have to act
on it. If you are used to high tow I would be the first to admit
that low
tow looks weird but it is much more stable and requires much
less work to
keep the proper position. It appears to me that people are
saying that out
of position in low tow is a much less serious situation that out
of
position in high tow (too low is better than too high)



In my experience it it normal in South Africa to low tow.
Whether the recent fatal tug upset at MGC was intitially in low
tow I have no idea.

On Sunday, February 23, 2014 10:40:09 PM UTC-6, GC wrote:
On 24/02/2014 04:23, Dave Nadler wrote:

I'm confused by a couple of statements in this thread...



1) "Low tow prevents kiting"

Doesn't the kiting event often happen in early take-off,

just as glider is leaving the ground, and before low-tow

is established???



I don't know. We haven't had enough recent kiting accidents in Oz to know.





2) "Nose hook prevents kiting"

Didn't we have at least one fatal accident in USA

with a nosehook (L-13 IIRCC)??? Others???

Anybody have any facts (Yes, I know, its RAS, but...)???

I'm not saying nose-hooks don't help, however...



So what ARE you saying? Swallows, summer? Just stirring the pot?



Dave, I'm well aware of the much yada yada on r.a.s. regarding low/high

tow of which you've been part. I'm not going to be drawn into it. As I

said, a lot of it appears to me to be based on personality in the form

of "real men fly high tow - and they do it on CG hooks!"



I only wanted to say that if kiting is a problem, nose hooks and low tow

will reduce it to insignificance. If those practices are not worth

adopting, kiting's not a real problem.



GC



But then, I'm easily confused...

...just keep taking the tablets like I told you...

Thanks,

Best Regards, Dave



So will adding 50 feet to the tow rope!

Zen