Stall/spin and ground reference maneuvers

I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at the
start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown point and
roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this both in
my LAK and in the tow planes.

I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for
FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle for the
pax.

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
I wonder if part of the problem we have in patterns is the patterns
themselves. Probably because of a military aviation background, I really
(for both power and gliders) prefer the military continuous 180 turn from a
lower closer downwind to final to the civilian higher, downwind - turn -
base - turn - final approach.

I keep the pattern speed a bit high (say 60 - 65 knots in glass), half
spoilers abeam the touchdown aimpoint, about 500' agl, pretty close in to
the field, then at the TLAR point, roll into about 30 degrees of bank and
turn in. If wide I can steepen up, if tight open out, but the turn is one
continuous turn until rollout on final, and then I start transitioning to my
final speed and adjusting to where I want to touch down.

Lower and closer in, I find it a lot easier to judge the angles; I HATE long
finals!

So the turn is pretty much like any thermalling turn while adjusting the
center, without having to roll completely in and out twice with the usual
chance to under/over rudder the turn..

Just my 2 cents...

Kirk
66

Dan,

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:59:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at the
start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown point and
roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this both in
my LAK and in the tow planes.

I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for
FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle for the
pax.

John,

Yes, I would. It's the pattern I've flown for 40+ years and it's always
worked well for me. I would not consider changing to a square base with a
90 degree turn to final during a critical outlanding at a fenced field.
Likewise, I wouldn't advise anyone to switch to a circling landing under the
same circumstances.

I plan my patterns to roll to a stop at the same location every time using
minimal wheel brake. I do this with calm winds and 30+ kt winds. I find it
easier to plan and execute simply by changing the point where I begin my
final turn.

PS - Navy pilots can't land, then only crash and hope the wire stops them
before they go over the side. ;-)

"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Dan,

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip,
too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy
pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:59:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at the
start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown point
and
roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this both
in
my LAK and in the tow planes.

I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for
FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle for
the
pax.

Thanks, Dan. I suspected you'd keep on with what was familiar to you.

-John, Q3

PS - My Navy buddies tell me they do circling approaches because the airstrip is moving. Air Force pilots copy Navy pilots because the field knows an Air Force pilot is coming and it will run away... grin

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:10:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
John,

Yes, I would. It's the pattern I've flown for 40+ years and it's always
worked well for me. I would not consider changing to a square base with a
90 degree turn to final during a critical outlanding at a fenced field.
Likewise, I wouldn't advise anyone to switch to a circling landing under the
same circumstances.

I plan my patterns to roll to a stop at the same location every time using
minimal wheel brake. I do this with calm winds and 30+ kt winds. I find it
easier to plan and execute simply by changing the point where I begin my
final turn.

PS - Navy pilots can't land, then only crash and hope the wire stops them
before they go over the side. ;-)

"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Dan,

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip,
too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy
pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

-John, Q3


On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:59:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at the

start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown point

and

roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this both

in

my LAK and in the tow planes.



I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for

FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle for

the

pax.

snort, chuckle...


"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Dan. I suspected you'd keep on with what was familiar to you.

-John, Q3

PS - My Navy buddies tell me they do circling approaches because the
airstrip is moving. Air Force pilots copy Navy pilots because the field
knows an Air Force pilot is coming and it will run away... grin

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:10:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
John,

Yes, I would. It's the pattern I've flown for 40+ years and it's always
worked well for me. I would not consider changing to a square base with
a
90 degree turn to final during a critical outlanding at a fenced field.
Likewise, I wouldn't advise anyone to switch to a circling landing under
the
same circumstances.

I plan my patterns to roll to a stop at the same location every time
using
minimal wheel brake. I do this with calm winds and 30+ kt winds. I find
it
easier to plan and execute simply by changing the point where I begin my
final turn.

PS - Navy pilots can't land, then only crash and hope the wire stops them
before they go over the side. ;-)

"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Dan,

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult
strip,
too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the
Navy
pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling
approach.

-John, Q3


On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:59:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at
the

start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown
point

and

roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this
both

in

my LAK and in the tow planes.



I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for

FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle
for

the

pax.

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:35:51 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

Depends. If low, yes - I'll fly whatever pattern I can to land safely. If I have more time and want to look over the landing area more, then I might fly a higher, longer pattern to give more time to pick the best place to land. Also need to be able to fly bigger patterns when sequencing behind other gliders, so all the skills need to be maintained.

I think it's important to be able to fly a "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach in gliders, so that energy can be maintained until late in the approach, and used or gotten rid of as required. Also should be able to fly an approach from just about anywhere around the intended point of landing. Always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting! Power pilots are taught to fly "stabilized approaches" because that is how you land a big airplane.. Totally unnecessary in small planes, and IMO downright dangerous in gliders.

As far as watching the ASI, after reaching the TLAR point where I want to start the turn, I look just to the inside (11 or 1 o'clock) when initiating the turn, monitor the ASI for trend (glider is trimmed slightly fast), monitor the yawstring, then check how the turn is progressing, then back to ASI - yawstring - turn, etc until time to roll out. If it's a busy runway I might roll out momentarily to check the extended final, then roll back into the turn - those would be pretty aggressive rolls with lots of speed.

Kirk

Kirk,

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).

Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:30:30 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:35:51 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult strip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the Navy pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling approach.

Depends. If low, yes - I'll fly whatever pattern I can to land safely. If I have more time and want to look over the landing area more, then I might fly a higher, longer pattern to give more time to pick the best place to land. Also need to be able to fly bigger patterns when sequencing behind other gliders, so all the skills need to be maintained.

I think it's important to be able to fly a "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach in gliders, so that energy can be maintained until late in the approach, and used or gotten rid of as required. Also should be able to fly an approach from just about anywhere around the intended point of landing. Always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting! Power pilots are taught to fly "stabilized approaches" because that is how you land a big airplane. Totally unnecessary in small planes, and IMO downright dangerous in gliders.

As far as watching the ASI, after reaching the TLAR point where I want to start the turn, I look just to the inside (11 or 1 o'clock) when initiating the turn, monitor the ASI for trend (glider is trimmed slightly fast), monitor the yawstring, then check how the turn is progressing, then back to ASI - yawstring - turn, etc until time to roll out. If it's a busy runway I might roll out momentarily to check the extended final, then roll back into the turn - those would be pretty aggressive rolls with lots of speed.

Kirk

Always check for that low airplane dragging it in on a long final.
JMF


At 18:08 05 March 2014, John Carlyle wrote:
Kirk,

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.=20

I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into
t=
he same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be
exc=
iting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10
landouts=
in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence
o=
nce they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were
i=
nteresting).=20

Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also
inte=
resting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options
open,
=
but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on
severa=
l occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed
un=
der me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand
correct=
ly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?=20

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:30:30 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:35:51 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
=20
Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult
str=
ip, too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the
Nav=
y pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling
approach.=
=20
=20
Depends. If low, yes - I'll fly whatever pattern I can to land safely.
I=
f I have more time and want to look over the landing area more, then I
migh=
t fly a higher, longer pattern to give more time to pick the best place
to
=
land. Also need to be able to fly bigger patterns when sequencing behind
ot=
her gliders, so all the skills need to be maintained.
=20
I think it's important to be able to fly a "de-stabilized"
(non-constant
=
airspeed) approach in gliders, so that energy can be maintained until
late
=
in the approach, and used or gotten rid of as required. Also should be
able=
to fly an approach from just about anywhere around the intended point of
l=
anding. Always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty
much
=
guarantees that your first landout will be exciting! Power pilots are
taug=
ht to fly "stabilized approaches" because that is how you land a big
airpla=
ne. Totally unnecessary in small planes, and IMO downright dangerous in
gl=
iders.
=20
As far as watching the ASI, after reaching the TLAR point where I want
to=
start the turn, I look just to the inside (11 or 1 o'clock) when
initiatin=
g the turn, monitor the ASI for trend (glider is trimmed slightly fast),
mo=
nitor the yawstring, then check how the turn is progressing, then back to
A=
SI - yawstring - turn, etc until time to roll out. If it's a busy runway
I=
might roll out momentarily to check the extended final, then roll back
int=
o the turn - those would be pretty aggressive rolls with lots of speed.
=20
Kirk

Yes, indeed! That was just one of several "interesting" experiences I had a that contest...

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 3:37:08 PM UTC-5, firsys wrote:
Always check for that low airplane dragging it in on a long final.

JMF

At 18:08 05 March 2014, John Carlyle wrote:
I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options
open,
but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on
severa=
l occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed
un=
der me, another time someone drove onto the field).

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:08:55 PM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

My experience is that you can never be sure that you will be able to fly a "textbook" pattern, so better to be comfortable in a variety of situations. It's a matter of getting your glider from where it is to short final to your desired landing area, at a safe speed and altitude for the existing conditions. Patterns are guides - but one can land safely from all sorts of patterns; one can also (as we are proving) crash from "textbook" patterns.


I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).


If you have the luxury of large fields and plenty of time, then setting up a "standard" pattern is always a good option - but what if you don't have those options? You may find on base that the field you picked is not landable, or the wind changes 180 degrees due to a gust front; you may be following a valley and have to suddenly land in that field on your left; or you may get back to your own field and be in a gaggle of gliders all vying for the same runway at the same time. Most of my landouts have been benign also - but I've also done a couple of final glides into fields that I couldn't see and the pattern consisted of one turn, gear & flaps down, and land. I think you have to be prepared for these kinds of eventualities, and be able to fly your glider safely when low and stressed. That takes planning and practice.


Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?


Energy is the key, high and fast is nice, lower and fast is OK, but slow and low is never good until over the threshold! I see my "hot" pattern speed as a minimum and if it gets a bit high I don't worry about it - final is a fine time to decelerate and get ready to land. Again, it depends on the situation - if there are lots of gliders around trying to land, then playing off altitude and speed is a useful tool to use to get sequenced into the flow - and extra speed on final is good unless you KNOW you have to land short! If there is nothing going on and it's the last landing of the day, then a perfect, constant speed pattern is a fun challenge; but if it's a hectic arrival, I may have to maneuver aggressively to get down; then speed control is more of the "stay fast, stay fast, stay fast..." variety until the immediate problem of where to go is solved. Stall/spins make lousy pattern entries!

Cheers,

Kirk
66