Stall/spin and ground reference maneuvers

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 7:58:56 AM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:

I just don't know if making people aware of peripheral vision changes is the way forward. Isn't it better to get them to focus only on what matters for the few seconds that are needed in a low altitude turn?

Visual perception is certainly not the only thing. I do think it is how most pilots interpolate between references to the airspeed and yaw string. Generally that scan cycle is a pretty rapid loop and wandering into stall/spin is not a big risk. I do believe that pilots get into trouble because, for one reason or another, they: 1) don't update the scan, 2) misinterpret what the instruments are telling them or 3) fail to act. I'd bet that #1 is the main thing - possibly due to distraction, fixation, overload or other reasons. When this happens your central and peripheral vision (and your inner ear) are how you maintain attitude and airspeed and that can drift, but also can be fooled if the visual cues are different than what you get 99% of the time when you are flying above a couple hundred feet. Why is this important to know? Because if you know and train to recognize that the cues will push to towards a skidding turn that is too slow you have a better chance of checking yourself before you do something based on instincts honed by flying at altitude that down low can kill you.

I do not know how strong these effects are but a ride with a competent check pilot/instructor might be able to inform how strong the tendency is.

That's my theory anyway.

9B

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:24:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 7:58:56 AM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:

Visual perception is certainly not the only thing. I do think it is how most pilots interpolate between references to the airspeed and yaw string. Generally that scan cycle is a pretty rapid loop and wandering into stall/spin is not a big risk. I do believe that pilots get into trouble because, for one reason or another, they: 1) don't update the scan, 2) misinterpret what the instruments are telling them or 3) fail to act. I'd bet that #1 is the main thing - possibly due to distraction, fixation, overload or other reasons. When this happens your central and peripheral vision (and your inner ear) are how you maintain attitude and airspeed and that can drift, but also can be fooled if the visual cues are different than what you get 99% of the time when you are flying above a couple hundred feet. Why is this important to know? Because if you know and train to recognize that the cues will push to towards a skidding turn that is too slow you have a better chance of checking yourself before you do something based on instincts honed by flying at altitude that down low can kill you.

I do not know how strong these effects are but a ride with a competent check pilot/instructor might be able to inform how strong the tendency is.

That's my theory anyway.

9B

BTW, that's one reason why I tend to carry a bit more airspeed until I'm on final (like Kirk). I know that if I get a surprise or distraction on the turn to final with a bigger speed margin I will have more time to sort the distraction before airspeed bleeds off. That works in my -27. I don't do it in a Duo.

9B

Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also agree that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a ride with an instructor.

I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your peripheral vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you bad data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual cues for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality. Your central vision looking over the nose will provide good feedback to your inner ear even if there is a peripheral mirage, so I think your balance and motion sensation will remain OK.

That said, I can understand someone deciding to focus with central vision on something seen peripherally, but unless they decide to fixate on it (thus causing your errors 1 and 3) I don't see it as a problem because if you look over the nose again you'll perceive that you're OK. Thus my comment many messages before that "Just because you perceive something doesn't mean that you have to pay attention to it".

Perhaps you and I should take rides with instructors this spring, see if wing motion reversal down low causes either of us problems, and then compare notes.

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 3:33:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:24:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Visual perception is certainly not the only thing. I do think it is how most pilots interpolate between references to the airspeed and yaw string.. Generally that scan cycle is a pretty rapid loop and wandering into stall/spin is not a big risk. I do believe that pilots get into trouble because, for one reason or another, they: 1) don't update the scan, 2) misinterpret what the instruments are telling them or 3) fail to act. I'd bet that #1 is the main thing - possibly due to distraction, fixation, overload or other reasons. When this happens your central and peripheral vision (and your inner ear) are how you maintain attitude and airspeed and that can drift, but also can be fooled if the visual cues are different than what you get 99% of the time when you are flying above a couple hundred feet. Why is this important to know? Because if you know and train to recognize that the cues will push to towards a skidding turn that is too slow you have a better chance of checking yourself before you do something based on instincts honed by flying at altitude that down low can kill you.

I do not know how strong these effects are but a ride with a competent check pilot/instructor might be able to inform how strong the tendency is.

That's my theory anyway.

9B

BTW, that's one reason why I tend to carry a bit more airspeed until I'm on final (like Kirk). I know that if I get a surprise or distraction on the turn to final with a bigger speed margin I will have more time to sort the distraction before airspeed bleeds off. That works in my -27. I don't do it in a Duo.

9B

On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also agree
that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a ride
with an instructor.

I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your peripheral
vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you bad
data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual cues
for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.

Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably
(way?) too long."

I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)

I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.

Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection
flaps!

Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:01:30 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:

Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also agree

that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a ride

with an instructor.



I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your peripheral

vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you bad

data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual cues

for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.



Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the

"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably

(way?) too long."



I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere

that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a

honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a

mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to

solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a

large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of

feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings

off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I

didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably

on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)



I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the

miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd

a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within

no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the

solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was

time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The

only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15

seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the

cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);

and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight

path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude

before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite

direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after

the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.



Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing

complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go

IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your

life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every

landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection

flaps!



Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

The best data says a pilot will lose control of the aircraft in mere seconds in a cloud if not trained and equipped for instrument flight.

The inner ear serves no useful purpose in aviators. It only serves to induce one of the many aviation specific illusions and/or vertigo. We didn't evolve to fly so we must learn to deal with our limitations. The best pilots learn to ignore vestibular sensations and rely on sight - viewing instruments or outside cues. This lesson is best learned under a hood with a CFII in the right seat.

At 04:15 06 March 2014, Bill D wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:01:30 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
=20
Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also
agr=
ee
=20
that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a
ri=
de
=20
with an instructor.
=20

=20
I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your
periphera=
l
=20
vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you
ba=
d
=20
data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual
cue=
s
=20
for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.
=20
=20
=20
Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests
the=
=20
=20
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is
"probably=
=20
=20
(way?) too long."
=20
=20
=20
I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment
anywhe=
re=20
=20
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction
wi=
th a=20
=20
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy
hal=
f a=20
=20
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR
to=
=20
=20
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a=20
=20
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers)
thousands
=
of=20
=20
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my
wing=
s=20
=20
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because
if
=
I=20
=20
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain
conside=
rably=20
=20
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)
=20
=20
=20
I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of
the=
=20
=20
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and
figure=
d I'd=20
=20
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud
w=
ithin=20
=20
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once
insid=
e the=20
=20
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it
w=
as=20
=20
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited.
Th=
e=20
=20
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within
15=
=20
=20
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side
of
=
the=20
=20
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full
flap=
s);=20
=20
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my
fli=
ght=20
=20
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max
altitu=
de=20
=20
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the
opposite=20
=20
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank
af=
ter=20
=20
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of
course.
=20
=20
=20
Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before
losing=20
=20
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!)
don't=
go=20
=20
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and
maybe=
your=20
=20
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had
every=20
=20
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large
defle=
ction=20
=20
flaps!
=20
=20
=20
Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

The best data says a pilot will lose control of the aircraft in mere
second=
s in a cloud if not trained and equipped for instrument flight.

The inner ear serves no useful purpose in aviators. It only serves to
indu=
ce one of the many aviation specific illusions and/or vertigo. We didn't
e=
volve to fly so we must learn to deal with our limitations. The best
pilot=
s learn to ignore vestibular sensations and rely on sight - viewing
instrum=
ents or outside cues. This lesson is best learned under a hood with a
CFII=
in the right seat.


One small piece of advice on this, keep your head still, turning it to look
left and right and upwards greatly increases the disorientatation as you
move semi-circular canals in and out of the plane of rotation.

Getting people to do that whilst in cloud has always been part of my cloud
flying training routine, though it normally comes after a few cloud flying
trips to build up experience.

Bob,

I've never experienced vertigo during flight (only on the ground from illness or alcohol issues), so I'm happy to admit I was wrong by a factor of 10 in estimating its onset. Can we settle on a vertigo onset of 5-10 seconds for sake of argument?

Getting back to the original topic, there we are, in our base to final turn with our ASI reading yellow diamond value plus half the wind speed. Suppose we shift our gaze from over the nose (where we were looking at pitch, yaw string and bank angle) towards the inside wing (to check that the airport hasn't run away). In our peripheral vision we see some unusual motion of the wing. We can either ignore it and keep on flying the plane, or we can focus on it. If we ignore it, no problem, but if we focus on it there are four possibilities as to what can happen next.

First case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, but I've got a plane to fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose, keep the turn coordinated and successfully land. Second case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, doesn't matter now, I've got a plane to fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose, keep the turn coordinated and successfully land. Third case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, hmmm, maybe I should put in some more rudder", and we don't land successfully. Fourth case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, hmmm, wow those trees are close and they're really moving funny, I'm going to have to remember this to tell the guys all about it, I wonder if I bleed off too much altitude, hey there's a good looking lady down there, wonder if she sees me up here, whoops, I'm dizzy and don't feel too good, gee those trees are really close and now they're spinning around and around, oh I'm sick" and we don't land successfully.

In the first two cases, there's no problem. I think we can agree case four is very, very unlikely, as no one is likely to fixate on something unusual for so long (5-10 seconds) when they're low that they'll succumb to vertigo and crash. It's drummed into us as students that above all else, we need to fly the plane, no matter what.

But what about case three? Some in this thread have said it's possible, and that one needs ground reference training to become familiar with the reverse wing tip movement sensation so you don't try to "correct it". Maybe, but I'd argue no. First, you're going to have to quit doing something very important (maintaining a coordinated turn while low) to focus on something secondary in order to realize what's happening. Next you're going to have to "do something" impulsively without cross-checking with a quick gaze at your yaw string that something really needs to be done to maintain your coordinated turn. If you're the sort that would be susceptible to these actions, I'd suggest there's training in other areas that needs to be accomplished first before you consider ground reference training.

Now, let me follow your topic drift. Suppose it takes 5-10 seconds without outside orientation references for vertigo to set in. Why wouldn't all the passengers in the center section of a widebody at night get nauseous? If your answer is "they use the cabin as an orientation reference for their inner ear", then why can't the pilot use his cockpit features for the same purpose? He'll probably still lose control of the aircraft, but he shouldn't become nauseous.

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:01:30 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably
(way?) too long."

I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)

I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.

Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection
flaps!

Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

On 3/7/2014 8:24 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
Bob,

I've never experienced vertigo during flight (only on the ground from
illness or alcohol issues), so I'm happy to admit I was wrong by a factor
of 10 in estimating its onset. Can we settle on a vertigo onset of 5-10
seconds for sake of argument?

John - I'm 'happy to settle on any time-interval anyone would like' for
vertigo onset, because - as I've no doubt you well realize - what really
matters is that it WILL happen, and if Joe Pilot doesn't already have a
well-rehearsed Plan B ready for PDQ implementation, he's just transitioned
from a "Crud!" or "Oh s**t!" situation to a deadly one.

Getting back to the original topic, there we are, in our base to final turn
with our ASI reading yellow diamond value plus half the wind speed. Suppose
we shift our gaze from over the nose (where we were looking at pitch, yaw
string and bank angle) towards the inside wing (to check that the airport
hasn't run away). In our peripheral vision we see some unusual motion of
the wing. We can either ignore it and keep on flying the plane, or we can
focus on it. If we ignore it, no problem, but if we focus on it there are
four possibilities as to what can happen next.

First case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, but I've got a plane to
fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose, keep the turn coordinated and
successfully land. Second case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've
never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, doesn't
matter now, I've got a plane to fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose,
keep the turn coordinated and successfully land. Third case, we tell
ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder
why that's happening, hmmm, maybe I should put in some more rudder", and we
don't land successfully. Fourth case, we tell ourselves "that's
interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's
happening, hmmm, wow those trees are close and they're really moving funny,
I'm going to have to remember this to tell the guys all about it, I wonder
if I bleed off too much altitude, hey there's a good looking lady down
there, wonder if she sees me up here, whoops, I'm dizzy and don't feel too
good, gee those trees are really close and now they're spinning around and
around, oh I'm sick" and we don't land successfully.

In the first two cases, there's no problem. I think we can agree case four
is very, very unlikely, as no one is likely to fixate on something unusual
for so long (5-10 seconds) when they're low that they'll succumb to vertigo
and crash. It's drummed into us as students that above all else, we need to
fly the plane, no matter what.

But what about case three? Some in this thread have said it's possible, and
that one needs ground reference training to become familiar with the
reverse wing tip movement sensation so you don't try to "correct it".
Maybe, but I'd argue no. First, you're going to have to quit doing
something very important (maintaining a coordinated turn while low) to
focus on something secondary in order to realize what's happening. Next
you're going to have to "do something" impulsively without cross-checking
with a quick gaze at your yaw string that something really needs to be done
to maintain your coordinated turn. If you're the sort that would be
susceptible to these actions, I'd suggest there's training in other areas
that needs to be accomplished first before you consider ground reference
training.

I don't fundamentally disagree with your assessments one bit. The trick for an
instructor (or Joe Pilot, for that matter, if J.P. is vaguely insightful) is
to decide if Joe Pilot is in fact susceptible to life-threatening
distractions. I pretty quickly in my 'pilot career' concluded I was not (or
for darned sure intended to make certain I didn't fall prey to that stupid
trap), and my motivation was the dead pilots whom I suspected WERE for some
reason or other. In either case, additional training on SOMEthing related to
'how to properly fly a (definitionally non-standard) pattern' seems in order. :-)


Now, let me follow your topic drift. Suppose it takes 5-10 seconds without
outside orientation references for vertigo to set in. Why wouldn't all the
passengers in the center section of a widebody at night get nauseous? If
your answer is "they use the cabin as an orientation reference for their
inner ear", then why can't the pilot use his cockpit features for the same
purpose? He'll probably still lose control of the aircraft, but he
shouldn't become nauseous.

Indeed...

For the record, I've not yet experienced nausea with my vertigo incidents
(in-glider, on-ground, in FAA 'IFR chair', etc.). In any event, small comfort
hitting the ground comfortably and out of control as opposed to queasily and
out of control, eh? ;-)

Bob W.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 9:24:21 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
But what about case three? Some in this thread have said it's possible, and that one needs ground reference training to become familiar with the reverse wing tip movement sensation so you don't try to "correct it". Maybe, but I'd argue no. First, you're going to have to quit doing something very important (maintaining a coordinated turn while low) to focus on something secondary in order to realize what's happening. Next you're going to have to "do something" impulsively without cross-checking with a quick gaze at your yaw string that something really needs to be done to maintain your coordinated turn. If you're the sort that would be susceptible to these actions, I'd suggest there's training in other areas that needs to be accomplished first before you consider ground reference training.

I don't understand why the motion of the wingtip over the ground is such a big deal? Who looks (focuses) at their wingtip in flight? I'm looking way beyond it at some other object - who cares what my wingtip is doing? In a steady turn, once established, it would take a lot of rudder to significantly move the nose and create dangerous yaw - who boots the rudder while in a steady turn? I think there is something more basic going on here - poor/lazy airmanship! Get out and fly more; practice stalls/departures/spiral dive recoveries, be aggressive in your pattern - fly down to the flare (fast, steep, in control), instead of being scared to get close to the ground, etc....

Now, let me follow your topic drift. Suppose it takes 5-10 seconds without outside orientation references for vertigo to set in. Why wouldn't all the passengers in the center section of a widebody at night get nauseous? If your answer is "they use the cabin as an orientation reference for their inner ear", then why can't the pilot use his cockpit features for the same purpose? He'll probably still lose control of the aircraft, but he shouldn't become nauseous.

Because the airliner is always in coordinated flight and the turn/roll rates as very slow. Trust me, every passenger in an airliner doing turns in clouds or at night has vertigo, but since they are unaware of it, unless they are looking out the window when they pop out of a cloud in a turn they will not become aware of it or get nausious. Next time you fly commercial, focus your gaze forward down the cabin during the takeoff acceleration, and you will sense the plane pitching up significantly BEFORE rotation (acceleration effect on inner ear - vertigo), then look out the window and note how fast your equilibrium reestablishes. This really was fun in something like a C-130 or C-141 with no windows and good acceleration, it felt like you pitched up 10 degrees immediately!

Kirk
66