International JSF (sub) standard

John Cook wrote:
Our considerations will cover which weapons should be carried
internally and which should be carried externally on JCA. Under
current plans, it is not considered cost or operationally effective
for JCA to carry ASRAAM and Brimstone externally, but the internal
carriage of these weapons remains an option. "

What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in such
a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the enemy
will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of that missile?

-HJC

Henry J Cobb wrote in message ...
John Cook wrote:
Our considerations will cover which weapons should be carried
internally and which should be carried externally on JCA. Under
current plans, it is not considered cost or operationally effective
for JCA to carry ASRAAM and Brimstone externally, but the internal
carriage of these weapons remains an option. "

What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in such
a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the enemy
will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of that missile?

-HJC

Thats a very good point and one I hadn't really thought about, now
does the US JSF require Aim9X's to be externally carried??, or any air
to ground weapons roughly comparable to the Brimstone?, if so why the
difference?.


cheers

John Cook wrote:
Henry J Cobb wrote in message ...
What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in such
a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the enemy
will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of that missile?

Thats a very good point and one I hadn't really thought about, now
does the US JSF require Aim9X's to be externally carried??, or any air
to ground weapons roughly comparable to the Brimstone?, if so why the
difference?.

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/03paris/hard01.htm
The only way to carry an AAM when the JSF is in stealth mode, with
internal weapons, is to carry it on the inner weapons bay door. The
missile's seeker has a very restricted field of view in this position,
making LOAL almost essential. The UK plans to use the AIM-9X's rival,
the MBDA ASRAAM, from the JSF bay door, presumably in a LOAL mode.

-HJC

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:55:45 -0700, Henry J Cobb wrote:

John Cook wrote:
Henry J Cobb wrote in message ...
What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in such
a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the enemy
will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of that missile?

Thats a very good point and one I hadn't really thought about, now
does the US JSF require Aim9X's to be externally carried??, or any air
to ground weapons roughly comparable to the Brimstone?, if so why the
difference?.

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/03paris/hard01.htm
The only way to carry an AAM when the JSF is in stealth mode, with
internal weapons, is to carry it on the inner weapons bay door. The
missile's seeker has a very restricted field of view in this position,
making LOAL almost essential. The UK plans to use the AIM-9X's rival,
the MBDA ASRAAM, from the JSF bay door, presumably in a LOAL mode.

Yup thats what I read, but does the US have any plans to add
ASRAAM/HARM/Slamer and Maverick to the external stores, the LOAL mode
seems to be quite a challenge if the F-22 Aim9X's intergration is
anything to go by.

It just interested me that some weapons are not being considered for
external carraige as I assume the external carraige would be fairly
easy to accomplish.

Cheers


-HJC

John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

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Just seen a chart that said the Aim9x is going to be intergrated on
the F-35 externally.

Seems the US isn't worried to much by external SRAAM's

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

"John Cook" wrote in message
...


Just seen a chart that said the Aim9x is going to be intergrated on
the F-35 externally.

Seems the US isn't worried to much by external SRAAM's

There are different levels of stealth and different needs for it
at different times. On day one of combat you need a lot but as
the war progresses satisfactorily it becomes less important as
the enemy's defenses are destroyed.
On day one planes like the F-35 will not carry weapons externally.
Later on as the threat level decreases you can start carrying
stuff externally since the loss of some stealth isn't as big an
issue.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 02:05:58 -0400, "John Keeney"
wrote:


"John Cook" wrote in message
.. .


Just seen a chart that said the Aim9x is going to be intergrated on
the F-35 externally.

Seems the US isn't worried to much by external SRAAM's

There are different levels of stealth and different needs for it
at different times. On day one of combat you need a lot but as
the war progresses satisfactorily it becomes less important as
the enemy's defenses are destroyed.
On day one planes like the F-35 will not carry weapons externally.
Later on as the threat level decreases you can start carrying
stuff externally since the loss of some stealth isn't as big an
issue.

I know I was just pointing out the differences between the RAF an US
versions, the UK don't see the need for external intergration of SRAAM
or brimstone while the US does, must be a doctrine thing.

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

Henry J Cobb wrote:
What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in
such a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the
enemy will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of
that missile?

Well, JSF will carry external bomb loads from time to time. If it's already
hauling bombs externally, it makes sense to hang self-defense missiles there
too. In theory, this will happen only after the enemy air defenses are
beaten down, but I'd really hate to be wrong.

I'm also curious how you reached your conclusion about detection vs firing
ranges. I'm sure you have no detailed knowledge of JSF's radar signature,
ASRAAM's effective range, or the detection ranges of enemy radars.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:40:42 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

Henry J Cobb wrote:
What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in
such a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the
enemy will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of
that missile?

Well, JSF will carry external bomb loads from time to time. If it's already
hauling bombs externally, it makes sense to hang self-defense missiles there
too. In theory, this will happen only after the enemy air defenses are
beaten down, but I'd really hate to be wrong.

I'm also curious how you reached your conclusion about detection vs firing
ranges. I'm sure you have no detailed knowledge of JSF's radar signature,
ASRAAM's effective range, or the detection ranges of enemy radars.
wouldnt the Aim-9x have a lower RCS then the Aim-120 anyway, so how
much increase to the planes overall RCS would a Sidewinder put on a
plane anyway. And take into account by the time you get in range to
use the Aim-9/ASRAAM your stealth is meaningless cause everything is
visible/IR target tracking. JMO

"Lyle" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:40:42 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

Henry J Cobb wrote:
What good would it do to carry a short range air to air missile in
such a way that it increases your radar return to the extent that the
enemy will now be able to engage your fighter beyond the range of
that missile?

Well, JSF will carry external bomb loads from time to time. If it's
already
hauling bombs externally, it makes sense to hang self-defense missiles
there
too. In theory, this will happen only after the enemy air defenses are
beaten down, but I'd really hate to be wrong.

I'm also curious how you reached your conclusion about detection vs
firing
ranges. I'm sure you have no detailed knowledge of JSF's radar
signature,
ASRAAM's effective range, or the detection ranges of enemy radars.

wouldnt the Aim-9x have a lower RCS then the Aim-120 anyway, so how
much increase to the planes overall RCS would a Sidewinder put on a
plane anyway.

A lot. Consider that they have been dillying around with how to cover joints
at fuselage openings to maintain the stealthy characteristics of the F-117,
B-2, etc. Recall the account from the head of the Skunk Works during the
F-117 development who noted that an incorrectly set fastener blew the RCS
out of of the steathy mode during an early test. *Anything* protruding
outside of the aircraft will tend to increase its RCS--they spend a great
deal of effort finetuning the exterior design to acheive a low RCS, and new
appendages would trash a lot of that effort. As to comparing it to the AIM
120, why? As long as the missiles are carried internally, what is the point?

And take into account by the time you get in range to
use the Aim-9/ASRAAM your stealth is meaningless cause everything is
visible/IR target tracking. JMO

At night? Approaching the target from the side or quarter, outside of any IR
seeker coverage (but inside the coverage of the radars of his supporting
AWACS or ground-based systems)? And do all frontline fighters have a good
IRST? Nope. Or if you are carrying the AIM-9 as a self-defense only measure,
and your real mission is to strike the airfield that the defending aircraft
is loitering about? How about the fact that your "meaningless" stealth may
still be effective against shorter wavelength systems (like a weapons
guidance package)--you still want to toss that out the window?

Brooks