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![]() "Jay Stranahan" wrote in message ... I see your point, and sincerely, it is convincing. I just think of the two alternatives - granted a defenceless lady has no capacity to fend off a burglar and there is no way the police can prevent him from breaking and entering - which is a sorry state of affairs. However, were that lady armed with a 9mm, any sensible burglar would still go to her home taking a pistol with him. Which is the safer situation for the lady, neither are pleasant, but I would argue the former. Okay, look.. I don't want to come off sounding like some chest-beating right-wing arsehole, but.... look at what you just wrote. Given the choice between self defense in her own home and placing herself at the mercy of a young male intruder, the woman in question should throw herself on the mercy of the intruder for *fear* that *he* might be armed. I'm sorry, but that's loathesome. Is this what you would choose for your own wife or mother? Look, here's the deal - I would rather the lady not be burgled in the first place - as anyone would. However that's trivial. Consider two options, either neither the lady nor the burglars has a weapon or on the flip side, they both do. Who is going to come out the better in a shoot out? The granny? Certainly not, which is why it would be better that there were no guns involved. Of course this is purely academic since America has a firmly established gun culture - don't forget you're talking to a Brit where the prospect of a some opportunist burglar entering my house with a handgun is frankly zero. In America, this is not the case, so give the poor granny an uzi and I wish her every success. Gun related deaths in the UK weighed in at 23 compared to over 10,000 in the US for a similar time period. Granted, a large proportion of that 10,000 may be gang related, or there may be other driving factors which are not so much of an issue in the UK. I'm just speculating. However you look at it, 10,000's just staggering - that's Vietnam in five years. This ethos of gun totting scares me rigid, how on earth can it be defended? In the US the number of states permitting the concealed carriage of weapons has risen from nine to 31 since 1986. That's just a step in the wrong direction. Would you kill a man if he tried to steal your car? Do you value your pick-up over a man's life? Even if he is a ****? And since I'm in a state of high dudgeon at the moment, here's a link on violent crime for the year in question from -- no, not some NRA think tank, but The Economist: http://www.economist.com/displayStor...tory_ID=513031 Britain doesn't come off too well. Certainly doesn't, and that's a shame. Here's another link from the Bureau of Justice. More Americans kill themselves with firearms than use them to commit any sort of crime. (Nothing to be proud of, for Christ's sake, but revealing). http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm And at any rate, this is all so much ****ing in the wind. The primary causes of crime are demographic and economic: The more jobless young men you have running around, the bigger the spike in crime. Demographers have been pointing this out for a long time, but they don't seem to make much of a dent in the whole crime/punishment/gun debate. I wholeheartedly agree, but wouldn't you prefer those guys to not have ready access to guns to facilitate those violent crimes? Or is it their right to go about their criminal activities safe in the knowledge that they've a weapon for self protection? Lunacy! I'm convinced culture also plays a part, as fuzzy and un-quantifiable as that may sound. I live in rural northern California, where we have no shortage of mean/stupid druggies/alcoholics/just plain crazies, and where the percentage of people on some kind of state support is in the double digits, and where pot and meth are to be easily manufactured and purchased, and where absolutely every house has *several* longarms in it... ....and yet out of 150,000-odd people, we had something like 380 violent crimes in 2001, including two murders (neither of which were gun-related). Which was damned alarming, because most years it's zero. I know that doesn't fit your prejudices -- about firearms in general, or about my people, or about the society we live in -- but there it is. I'm not desperately urging you guys to throw down your guns, shout hallelujahs and join the British way of life. I'm just fascinated as to why you so readily defend your right to shoot someone where really no right should exist. Make of it what you like, city boy. Call me what you like. Jim Doyle |
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![]() "B2431" wrote in message ... From: "Jim Doyle" snip I'm not desperately urging you guys to throw down your guns, shout hallelujahs and join the British way of life. I'm just fascinated as to why you so readily defend your right to shoot someone where really no right should exist. Jim Doyle I don't think anyone is advocating shooting anyone. I personally have drawn my weapon and it ended peacefully. No, I'm not law enforecment. Having said that there is a real fear of injury or death at the hands of criminals. I used to own a sporting goods store that sold guns. I lost a few sales suggesting little old ladies get medium size barking dogs instead of guns. I specified 'barking' since the bad guy is more likely go away without entering when the dog lights up. If you have a nonbarking dog that bites the bad guy you leave yourself open for a lawsuit. Believe it or not in the U.S. a burglar can sue for injuries incurred in the commission of his crime. I don't think a person should HAVE to fight with an intruder so I truly believe a law abiding citizen should be allowed to keep and carry loaded fire arms. Consideration must be given to the safety of children in the home. Do you not fear that your children could be hurt by the very gun that is in your hands to protect them? To be fair most of the fears felt by citizens is unfounded and aggrivated by alarmist news media, but if a firearm in the house makes one feel safe why should it be anyone else's business? Would you rather we were unarmed and afraid? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
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"Jim Doyle" wrote in
: "Jay Stranahan" wrote in message ... I see your point, and sincerely, it is convincing. I just think of the two alternatives - granted a defenceless lady has no capacity to fend off a burglar and there is no way the police can prevent him from breaking and entering - which is a sorry state of affairs. However, were that lady armed with a 9mm, any sensible burglar would still go to her home taking a pistol with him. Which is the safer situation for the lady, neither are pleasant, but I would argue the former. Okay, look.. I don't want to come off sounding like some chest-beating right-wing arsehole, but.... look at what you just wrote. Given the choice between self defense in her own home and placing herself at the mercy of a young male intruder, the woman in question should throw herself on the mercy of the intruder for *fear* that *he* might be armed. I'm sorry, but that's loathesome. Is this what you would choose for your own wife or mother? Look, here's the deal - I would rather the lady not be burgled in the first place - as anyone would. However that's trivial. Consider two options, either neither the lady nor the burglars has a weapon or on the flip side, they both do. Who is going to come out the better in a shoot out? The granny? Certainly not, which is why it would be better that there were no guns involved. Well,you seem to be wrong here,as there was such an incident here in the Central Florida area,and the 50 yr old lady came out alive,after receiving two shots,but killed the stalker that smashed through her patio door,armed with a gun and a piece of rope.And i've read of many others in the "Armed Citizen" column of the NRA,which reprints articles -from US newspapers- where ODCs have used firearms to defend themselves against criminals. Legal,legitimate self-defenses. At least allowing the granny to be armed -if she chooses-,gives her a fair chance of defense,something you seem to wish to deny to citizens. It certainly is NOT better that she not be armed and face an intruder. No way,no matter how you spin it. -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
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Would you kill a man if he tried to steal your car? Do you value
your pick-up over a man's life? Even if he is a ****? in a minute. If he is stealing my truck, that I use to make my living with, that might have the tools I use to make a living with, and is my only means to get to work, then he is no more to me than a vermin to be delt with. If the the criminals knew that the sentence for stealing a car was death or life in prison, they might think otherwise. There is a reason they used to hang horse thieves. A horse was a familys mean of survival, to plow the fields, to go into town to get supplies, to hunt with. Today the car has replaced the horse. Matt Gunsch, A&P,IA,Private Pilot Riding member of the 2003 world champion drill team Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team GWRRA,NRA,GOA |
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![]() "N329DF" wrote in message ... Would you kill a man if he tried to steal your car? Do you value your pick-up over a man's life? Even if he is a ****? in a minute. If he is stealing my truck, that I use to make my living with, that might have the tools I use to make a living with, and is my only means to get to work, then he is no more to me than a vermin to be delt with. If the the criminals knew that the sentence for stealing a car was death or life in prison, they might think otherwise. There is a reason they used to hang horse thieves. A horse was a familys mean of survival, to plow the fields, to go into town to get supplies, to hunt with. Today the car has replaced the horse. When I read this, my jaw just hit the desk. You are advocating the concept that a life is worth less that a few material goods. Don't you have third party insurance in the US? I don't mean to be rude, but drawing a comparison to 18th century policy just makes you look even more out of the dark ages. Someone tell me - this isn't the genuine feeling amongst all Americans?! Matt Gunsch, A&P,IA,Private Pilot Riding member of the 2003 world champion drill team Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team GWRRA,NRA,GOA |
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When I read this, my jaw just hit the desk. You are advocating the concept
that a life is worth less that a few material goods. Don't you have third party insurance in the US? Where I live, we have the highest automobile theft rate in the US. Getting insurance to cover that is getting to the point it is not affordable. Alot of people don't have insurance to cover the loss of a car or truck, and if they lose it, it could be the difference between keeping a roof over thier head and food on the table. In my own family, my dad had a 74 F-100, he was getting ready to retire, and knew that truck would be the last one he most likly ever to be able to get. He put in a factory new motor, tranmission, every system gone thru to make it like new. IT was stolen from his driveway less than a yr into his retirment. The insurance would only pay for a truck that was a rust bucket and was not reliable enough to go anywhere in. So not only did my dad loose his truck, he lost his retirment plans, and insurance could not replace the truck with a as good one. I may sound callous bout taking a life in the defence of a car or truck, but the vermin that stole my dads truck did alot more than just steal a truck, they stole his future. I don't hunt, because I don't like to kill a creature, be it a deer, rabit, bird, snake, for sport, but I have no problem taking out a rat or other forms of vermin, and thieves, either car or house, are a form of vermin. Matt Gunsch, A&P,IA,Private Pilot Riding member of the 2003 world champion drill team Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team GWRRA,NRA,GOA |
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"N329DF" wrote in message
... When I read this, my jaw just hit the desk. You are advocating the concept that a life is worth less that a few material goods. Don't you have third party insurance in the US? Where I live, we have the highest automobile theft rate in the US. Aren't the criminals deterred by the armed citizens? -- Paul J. Adam |
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in
: "N329DF" wrote in message ... When I read this, my jaw just hit the desk. You are advocating the concept that a life is worth less that a few material goods. Don't you have third party insurance in the US? Where I live, we have the highest automobile theft rate in the US. Aren't the criminals deterred by the armed citizens? -- Paul J. Adam Welll,due to those who are against people using,carrying,or even owning firearms,most US citizens do not own guns,nor carry them.Thus the chances of criminals encountering armed citizens is not high enough yet to deter such crimes.And in many states,defending property with lethal force IS illegal,protecting the criminals,making it safer for them to commit such crimes. ISTR that in the so-called "Wild West",where many people were armed,people could leave doors unlocked,horses unattended,without much fear of theft. -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
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