GAO Report: GA Security Threat

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:02:24 +0000, Ian Graeme
wrote:

Okay, lessee, you, from the country that censored references to the
NSDAP, were not lied to, but we were.

And your proof is that he used the wrong term (in a different language)
for the school.

Oh, I'm using the correct terms. My interviewees were two men in their
early 20's, and our conversations, casual peer conversations that they
were, took place in late 1989.

One of them had attended a Gesamtschule in Berlin. The other had
attended Realschule in Wuertzburg. Neither professed any familiarity
with the NSDAP or Hitler's rise to power, or the goings on in Germany
between Hitler's Chancellorhood and the fall of the Reich.

No knowledge of Kristallnacht, no descriptions of concentration camps
or the fate of the enemies of the German State at the time. No study
of the reasons behind the popular support of "dem dritten Reich". No
comparison of the political system in power then, as opposed to the
1989. Nothing.

They just didn't study it. History began with the formation of the
BRD, there was a 17 year gap, anything before that was like studying
pre-Civil War days in the U.S., that is to say, cursory.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:42:27 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:
Oh, I'm using the correct terms. My interviewees were two men in their
early 20's, and our conversations, casual peer conversations that they
were, took place in late 1989.

Asking two guys during a "casual peer conversation" what they remember
from their school time is hardly a base to judge a country's school
system. Your report may be truthful, but it's not even worth mentioning.

BTW, the one from Berlin doesn't count anyway. Different world there

- Holger

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:22:09 -0800, "Holger Stephan"
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:42:27 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:
Oh, I'm using the correct terms. My interviewees were two men in their
early 20's, and our conversations, casual peer conversations that they
were, took place in late 1989.

Asking two guys during a "casual peer conversation" what they remember
from their school time is hardly a base to judge a country's school
system. Your report may be truthful, but it's not even worth mentioning.

Thought that particular criticism was about whether I knew what the
names of the types of German schools were. I do, because some Germans
told me what they were.

Why, just two days ago I was in a NetMeeting conversation with a
15-year-old student at a Rheinland-Pfalz Realschule. He explained it
again.

What they learned there I gleaned from their descriptions of the
curriculum, not their recollections of the details of the curriculum.
Stephan, the *whole era* was missing from their study. And it's not
like I didn't converse with other Germans while there. I did: hundreds
to thousands in my time there. (I lost count.)

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected
to be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.

BTW, the one from Berlin doesn't count anyway. Different world there

I have no idea how to respond to that.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Robert,

Stephan, the *whole era* was missing from their study. And it's not
like I didn't converse with other Germans while there. I did: hundreds
to thousands in my time there. (I lost count.)

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected
to be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.


Man, I live here! You are simply wrong. The subject is discussed on a
regular basis, there are no inhibitions at all. Just last week, a
politician got fired for publicly displaying anti-semitism - and
everybody and his brother discussed the topic.

I can point you to the lesson plans of ANY German federal state - all
will contain extensive lessons in that part of history. If anything,
that part of our history is overtaught - rightly so, I might add.

I don't know which Germany you talk about, but it's not the country I
live in.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:56:42 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:

What they learned there I gleaned from their descriptions of the
curriculum, not their recollections of the details of the curriculum.
Stephan, the *whole era* was missing from their study. And it's not like
I didn't converse with other Germans while there. I did: hundreds to
thousands in my time there. (I lost count.)

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected to
be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.

These are pretty sever accusations. I would like to understand better from
where they come from. Do you speak German? How long did you stay in
Germany? Are you competent in the matters of eduction and school
curriculum? I sense a somewhat educated person behind what you write, but
am at a total loss as to understand how you came to your findings.

I went to school in Germany. My father taught history in German schools. I
can assure you the time between 1933 and 1945 is taught, including the
Holocaust. There were the history classes in which we went through the
chronology of political events in detail and I heard it twice (maybe
because I changed state and school). Then book reviews in the literature
classes. Read Peter Bamm's battle field reports as a 15 year old. It will
create pictures in your head that will stay with you for life. They've
shown us documentary films with caterpillars shoveling skinny corpses into
mass graves. Extremities moving one last time as if they might still have
life in them. View that as teenager without preparation of daily violence
on TV and you'll be thrown in a depression. Yes, they did tell us before
it would be tough and we could elect to leave the class room. But if you
didn't and also happened to have read Anne Frank's diary before seeing
this it will be more than you thought you could take that day.

I wished Thomas Borchert, as a German, would have voiced his political
position a bit more diplomatically in a predominantly American forum. You
won't understand him, and Germany's politics regarding Iraq neither.
But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war not that long
ago. It happened right where they live and that, together with the
incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has turned the people into
pacifists. This has everything to do with the ugly face of war and little
with the relationship between Germany and the United States and their
people.


- Holger

PS: I felt oblighted to respond, but don't like cross posting and would
like to leave it at this, for the groups I don't visit.

Holger,

I wished Thomas Borchert, as a German, would have voiced his political
position a bit more diplomatically in a predominantly American forum.


Do you see any "diplomacy" in the way the US view is presented here? Or
the slander of the German society? I sure don't.

This has everything to do with the ugly face of war and little
with the relationship between Germany and the United States and their
people.

I'm not sure I agree. A good part of the American people, and their
politicians for sure, have change a lot during the last two years. Some
of that change is, well, let's say, hard to understand. Oh, and I know
many Americans who agree vehemently.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:12:52 +0100, Thomas Borchert wrote:

Do you see any "diplomacy" in the way the US view is presented here? Or
the slander of the German society? I sure don't.

The question is what do you want to achieve with this discussion. It is
well known to most here in the US that a large part of the world disagrees
with the US Iraq politics. In particular Germany and France.

BTW, I didn't see any slandering. Misinformation, sure, but what comes
from you is not free of that either.


This has everything to do with the ugly face of war and little with the
relationship between Germany and the United States and their people.

I'm not sure I agree. A good part of the American people, and their
politicians for sure, have change a lot during the last two years. Some
of that change is, well, let's say, hard to understand. Oh, and I know
many Americans who agree vehemently.

The question is what do you want to achieve with this discussion. It is
well known to most here in the US that a large part of the world disagrees
with the US Iraq politics. In particular Germany and France.

Do you really believe that 280 some mil change within 2 years after
electing a new president? If you don't like them now, you probably didn't
like them before and didn't know it. There were protests here too. But it
is no surprise the larger part of the population supports their
government. You know what Herman Goering said at the Nuernberg trials
(facing the death penalty and not having care much about the consequences
of what he said):

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of
the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to
drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or
a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater
danger."

- Holger

"Holger Stephan" wrote:

The question is what do you want to achieve with this discussion. It is
well known to most here in the US that a large part of the world disagrees
with the US Iraq politics. In particular Germany and France.

One could look at the amount of business France, Russia and Germany
were doing with the Baath government in Iraq and reach a conclusion
that their objections had very little to do with anything but money.
Personally, I hope Saddam owed them all billions of dollars when he
went under.

It's kind of amusing that there are those who honestly feel that the
fact the US Vice President used to work for a military contractor who
got some business in reconstructing Iraq think that's significant, but
who can't imagine that France, Russia and Germany were influenced by
billions of dollars of commerce in their opposition to war. Go
figure...

Mark Hickey

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war. That
which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
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Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.



And uhhhhh lets not forget that EXCESSIVE pacifism....is WHAT allows these
crazy sobs like hitler to rise to power and make everyone else miserable in the
process.....

I dont hear many germans today bitchin today because we bombed the hell out the
civilians and hitlers minions in ww2, freeing them from a tyranical leadership
in the process.....not to mention similiar scenarios like japan etc etc....

And if peace at ANY cost is your mantra you better start polishing your posters
demanding that old Abe Lincoln go down as the most evil man in history for
starting that war of northern agression that ended up freeing the slaves.....
(not that the civil war actually had much to do with slavery in reality)

Blll