GAO Report: GA Security Threat

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war. That
which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

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Del Rawlins-
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Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.



And uhhhhh lets not forget that EXCESSIVE pacifism....is WHAT allows these
crazy sobs like hitler to rise to power and make everyone else miserable in the
process.....

I dont hear many germans today bitchin today because we bombed the hell out the
civilians and hitlers minions in ww2, freeing them from a tyranical leadership
in the process.....not to mention similiar scenarios like japan etc etc....

And if peace at ANY cost is your mantra you better start polishing your posters
demanding that old Abe Lincoln go down as the most evil man in history for
starting that war of northern agression that ended up freeing the slaves.....
(not that the civil war actually had much to do with slavery in reality)

Blll

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:43:19 +0000, BllFs6 wrote:

And uhhhhh lets not forget that EXCESSIVE pacifism....is WHAT allows
these crazy sobs like hitler to rise to power and make everyone else
miserable in the process.....

You will find people agreeing with this assessment and still opposing the
war in Iraq. Because they do not feel the two cases are comparable.


I dont hear many germans today bitchin today because we bombed the hell
out the civilians and hitlers minions in ww2, freeing them from a
tyranical leadership in the process.....not to mention similiar
scenarios like japan etc etc....

And if peace at ANY cost is your mantra you better start polishing your
posters demanding that old Abe Lincoln go down as the most evil man in
history for starting that war of northern agression that ended up
freeing the slaves..... (not that the civil war actually had much to do
with slavery in reality)

Your comment addresses people who oppose war in any case. I believe they
are a minority in Germany and France. Remember, German soldiers are in
Afghanistan and while of course there is opposition against it, Germany
has aligned itself with the US in this conflict. Iraq is a different
matter in that many more people question the necessity of this war. Not
knowing what would have happened without the US marching in, one can't
really prove them wrong.



Blll

Do you also have real name?

- Holger Stephan, Portland, OR

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:06:26 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that, together
with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has turned the
people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the ugly face of
war and little with the relationship between Germany and the United
States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war. That
which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

Yes, and why do you point this out, Del? Did anybody question this? Do you
think being guilty makes suffering easier? Not to mention there were a lot
of people not guilty in Germany and also suffering. Finally, I was trying
to explain today's German position. WWII was bad, regardless of guilt, and
there are many who more than others learned from that and say war should
not be used where there are other means to resolve a conflict. And since
they did not see the necessity to go into Iraq they say it shouldn't have
been done.


- Holger

On 21 Nov 2003 10:35 AM, Holger Stephan posted the following:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:06:26 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of
war not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany
and the United States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war.
That which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

Yes, and why do you point this out, Del? Did anybody question this? Do
you think being guilty makes suffering easier? Not to mention there
were a lot of people not guilty in Germany and also suffering. Finally,
I was trying to explain today's German position. WWII was bad,
regardless of guilt, and there are many who more than others learned
from that and say war should not be used where there are other means
to resolve a conflict. And since they did not see the necessity to go
into Iraq they say it shouldn't have been done.

What I meant to say, is that I don't find it particularly credible for
Germany to be critical of another nation's decision to go to war.

The whole point of this argument is that there *were* no other means
available to resolve the conflict in Iraq. Nothing short of force would
ever have brought Saddam down or motivated him to full disclosure on the
disposition of the WMD. The suggestion that the situation could have
been repaired otherwise is as ludicrous as the idea of negotiating for
peace with Hitler would have been in 1944.

As far as the continuing fighting in Iraq and elsewhere, those people
attacking our soldiers have hated our guts all along regardless of our
actions in Iraq. Far better that they are getting themselves killed at
the hands of our military rather than attacking civilians elsewhere, who
are not nearly as well equipped to deal with them.

Eventually order will be restored to Iraq and instead of being a
destabilizing force in the region, they will be if not an ally, then at
least a responsible, productive member of the international community.
What I find most annoying is that the democrats will probably be in
power once more by the time that happens, and will give themselves
credit for the successful conclusion of events brought about under the
current administration. And don't for a second think that they will
scale back this so called "patriot act" and TSA bull**** which we are
now subjected to.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 23:56:08 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

What I meant to say, is that I don't find it particularly credible for
Germany to be critical of another nation's decision to go to war.

I think it was Daniel Schorr who suggested not to overly criticize
Germany's current pacifism ...history has shown when they run into the
other direction they are hard to stop. Not a direct response to your
comment but I usually don't find much to say about moral lectures.


The whole point of this argument is that there *were* no other means
available to resolve the conflict in Iraq. Nothing short of force would
ever have brought Saddam down or motivated him to full disclosure on the
disposition of the WMD. The suggestion that the situation could have
been repaired otherwise is as ludicrous as the idea of negotiating for
peace with Hitler would have been in 1944.

This is an opinion. You can only assume what would have happened without
the war. BTW, this is called logic. Works without trying to find parallels
in history.

The other open (and never to be answered) question is whether it was
necessary to rid of Saddam in order to improve the security of the
American people (which was the only valid reason to justify the war,
before the nation and before the UN).

- Holger