Does anyone use a tug tow hook that releases automatically whenglider kites?

Apologies for this turning into a 2-33 rant that even jumped threads. The typical US trainer was brought up in another post to which I replied with a question. Have never tried to let go of the 2-33 stick on tow, thought others might have. Seems to me a mistake similar to that is what it takes to start an upset. Rare, yes. Fortunately so is the towplane upset.
Last experience in low tow 2-33 flying was landings on tow. It's a lot of stick pressure. But compared to modern ships it seems a lot of control pressure to do anything.
Like too many of us, I have lost a friend to a towplane upset. Many in Region 2 knew him.
Certainly in strong wave - and strong rotor - low tow provides a larger window to keep the towplane visible in. An invisible towplane should not have a glider attached.
My personal apprehension about low tow near the ground is from a low level, low tow accident I feel would have had a different outcome with another 20 or so feet of altitude to see and use the safe option. Instead the outcome was of the worst variety.
Jim

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:25:27 AM UTC-6, Chris Rollings wrote:


Kirk, I agreed a forward pressure is required on the stick and I admitted

that if the pilot let go of the stick (or failed to maintain that forward

pressure) then the glider would get out of position quite quickly - that is

not a kiting event and it can be stopped at any point by moving the stick

forwards.



Go and try it if you don't believe me.

I agree it isn't kiting. However, I disagree that it is a minor problem that "can be stopped at any point". The whole point (as shown in the video of the French K-13 climbing after the dive brakes opened) is that with a distraction, a pilot may not pay attention to his pitch position for long enough to get out of position - and in the 2-33, if you are distracted and relax pressure on the stick, you will climb A LOT! Not a kite, but enough to lose sight of the towplane or worse start pulling his tail up - that has happened to me.

Kirk
66

April 1981 Soaring, Safety Corner by Bob Gaines. Picture of mechanism and description. Was tested in England on an Auster. Read all about it on the SSA online archive.

I think that is probably the one we developed after our first series of
tests at Booker. It was fitted to a Terrier III, a derivative of the
Auster, with a 160 hp Lycoming instead of a Gypsy Major. I can't seem to
find the article, could you post a link - thanks.

At 01:24 19 April 2014, Tony wrote:
April 1981 Soaring, Safety Corner by Bob Gaines. Picture of mechanism and
description. Was tested in England on an Auster. Read all about it on the
SSA online archive.

Soaring magazine archive is available on SSA website to SSA members

My SSA membership is through my annual visits to Mile High Gliding to do
some flying and instructing there. I don't have a membership number I can
use to sign in.

At 12:55 19 April 2014, Tony wrote:
Soaring magazine archive is available on SSA website to SSA members

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:27:23 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
This topic was buried in a drifting degenerate thread. I'm wondering if anyone knows more about the tow hook innovation mentioned below by UH.



On Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:31:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:



Why does the pilot need to pull the release if the glider kites? Why is the release for a deadly tow position not fully automatic? Is a simple purely mechanical, totally foolproof and 100% automatic release not possible? As the guy in the glider, I would be fine with a 100% automatic release. If I kite, release me immediately.





On Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:05:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:



There was a design and prototype of a release like this created many years ago and published, I believe, in Soaring magazine. I know if no one that has adopted this which makes it fairly clear that this is not perceived as a huge problem.



In the 1970's I was flying the tow plane giving pattern tows. At about 1000 feet agl the student pilot in a 2-22 pulled the release (but not far enough to release the tow rope) and rolled to the right and up. In an instant the tow plane pitched into what seemed like a vertical dive. The tow rope either broke or was released. We never found any part of the tow rope. Nothing in my life ever happened faster than that upset. In over 7000 hours of flying, that upset is my most vivid memory.

Bill Snead

At 03:36 20 April 2014, wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:27:23 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
This topic was buried in a drifting degenerate thread. I'm wondering
if
=
anyone knows more about the tow hook innovation mentioned below by UH.
=20
=20
=20
On Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:31:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
=20
=20
=20
Why does the pilot need to pull the release if the glider kites? Why
is=
the release for a deadly tow position not fully automatic? Is a simple
pur=
ely mechanical, totally foolproof and 100% automatic release not
possible?
=
As the guy in the glider, I would be fine with a 100% automatic release.
If=
I kite, release me immediately.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:05:52 PM UTC-5,
wrote=
:=20
=20
=20
=20
There was a design and prototype of a release like this created many
ye=
ars ago and published, I believe, in Soaring magazine. I know if no one
tha=
t has adopted this which makes it fairly clear that this is not perceived
a=
s a huge problem.
=20


In the 1970's I was flying the tow plane giving pattern tows. At about
100=
0 feet agl the student pilot in a 2-22 pulled the release (but not far
enou=
gh to release the tow rope) and rolled to the right and up. In an
instant
=
the tow plane pitched into what seemed like a vertical dive. The tow
rope
=
either broke or was released. We never found any part of the tow rope.
No=
thing in my life ever happened faster than that upset. In over 7000
hours
=
of flying, that upset is my most vivid memory.

Bill Snead

At my gliding club in the UK, the Robin tug planes have the release on the
left, with the throttle on the right. We therefore fly left seat, left
handed. Consequently to release a problem glider, one has to change hands
on the stick.
I can tell you from experience this is not particularly intuitive,
particularly in the case of a low height glider kiting incident. I've
experienced it at height when the glider turns away and climbs while
forgetting to pull his release. When hanging from the straps looking at the
ground even at 2000' or so, the first thing in your mind is 'what the
heck'!
Changing flying hands and releasing is not something we tug pilots
practise, especially at low height!

Flyerbrain.

Further clarification about the tug upset video on YouTube, following first hand feedback from the tug pilot...

The tug had a French Aerazur hook, notorious for not releasing under tension. I guess issues with this hook led to the French pre-solo exercise of landing behind the tug. [I look forward to Kirk supplying me with a new JS1 !!!]

The tug pilot says the take-off felt normal, but during the initial climb the stick became harder...instantly he looked in the mirror and saw the ASK13 climbing like a winch launch...he didn't think, just pulled the red handle to release the rope. Maybe knowing that it was an Aerazur hook helped being decisive in releasing promptly. At the same time he felt the tug's tail lifting up and the tug's attitude was 45° down when he released. During debriefing, it was determined that the glider pilot released the rope just after the tug pilot. The tuggie hasn't said what height the tug was at before he recovered.

Not going to get into the semantics of calling this a kiting incident - while the glider was not excessively pitched up, it was high enough to upset the tug and could have been fatal if the tug pilot had not acted so quickly.

Iain

On Saturday, 22 February 2014 22:57:13 UTC, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:25:23 AM UTC-6, Iain Baker wrote:
For those who consider using a nose hook largely solves the
problem of kiting, I suggest watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MkCnVYa3VY

Excellent video.

But interestingly, not a case of kiting - more like the recent US case of upset by flying too high (distracted by open canopy). In the video (made by the pilot himself - bravo!) he remarks that the tow pilot realized something was wrong and released BEFORE the glider did. He then released to get rid of the tow rope trailing from his nose hook and flew his pattern. Pretty cool for a second solo...

I'll bet a new JS-1 that the Rallye towplane had a Tost hook!

In a scenario of the glider flying high due to inattention, with a nose hook, the climb should be slow enough for the tuggie to recognize and release (IF HE CAN - see Schweizer discussion!) because the glider pilot hopefully isn't just yanking back on the stick.

HOWEVER, if this same scenario had happened with a CG hook, it may have turned into a kiting incident, and could easily have been fatal for the tuggie.

Thanks for pointing out this video - I'm definitely showing it at our club's spring safety meeting!

Cheers,
Kirk

On Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:12:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Further clarification about the tug upset video on YouTube, following first hand feedback from the tug pilot...



The tug had a French Aerazur hook, notorious for not releasing under tension. I guess issues with this hook led to the French pre-solo exercise of landing behind the tug. [I look forward to Kirk supplying me with a new JS1 !!!]



The tug pilot says the take-off felt normal, but during the initial climb the stick became harder...instantly he looked in the mirror and saw the ASK13 climbing like a winch launch...he didn't think, just pulled the red handle to release the rope. Maybe knowing that it was an Aerazur hook helped being decisive in releasing promptly. At the same time he felt the tug's tail lifting up and the tug's attitude was 45° down when he released. During debriefing, it was determined that the glider pilot released the rope just after the tug pilot. The tuggie hasn't said what height the tug was at before he recovered.



Not going to get into the semantics of calling this a kiting incident - while the glider was not excessively pitched up, it was high enough to upset the tug and could have been fatal if the tug pilot had not acted so quickly.



Iain


Iain, thanks for the update - good info! I used this video at our club's spring safety meeting and it was a great teaching tool.

I was unaware of the French Aerazur hook - the last Rallye I looked at (in La Teste, last year) had a Tost - so I assumed....

I'll be faxing you your new JS-1 as soon as I get it shrunk enough in the dryer to fit in the fax machine!

Cheers,

Kirk