GW Bu$h's Torture Chambers and Rape rooms ...!

"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.goog le.com

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
naked, and other tortures are tortures.

No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
=)

Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up, naked,
by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your daughters
gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into a
chipper/shredder?

-*MORT*-

"Morton Davis" wrote in message news:RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.goog le.com

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
naked, and other tortures are tortures.

No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
=)

Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up, naked,
by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your daughters
gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into a
chipper/shredder?


I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.

Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.

You can be with us, or against us.

The choice is yours.

--

FF

Peter H Proctor wrote in message . ..
On 4 May 2004 14:39:30 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Peter H Proctor wrote in message . ..

True, torture may be wrong, but unless the combatants qualify
as POW's, the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, although other
international conventions may. Thus, e.g., you can still shoot
spies.

Since torture is wrong, it doesn't matter if the Geneva Conventions
for POWs or civilians apply or not.

It does cound if you are citing the Geneva Conventions, since these
are only applicable to real POWs.

If you wil review the thread and folow the link I provided you will
find that I was citing the:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman
or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

In response to the incorrect statement regarding accepted standards
of torture.

As you will recall, you introduced the Geneva Convention on POWs
into the discussion. It was entirely appropriate for you to do so,
I'd just rather you accpe tthe credit you deserve.



Consider the Nurenberg trials--
criminals were executed for crimes which violated no statute
or treaty. Rightly so, IMHO, they were tried and executed under
common law.

Quibble, common law never included the ancient sport of
"waging offensive warfare". True, the Nazis pretty much deserved
what they got.

I'm not certain that anyone at Nurenberg was tried for simply waging
war. I was thinking of trials for murdering fellow citizens.


However, the prosecution of Japanes generals generated some
scary precedents. For example, following the precident set by the
prosecution of General Yama****a, an area commander is responsible
for any abuses committed by the troops in his area, even if they are
not under his control and even if he has proved his reluctance to
commit atrocities.

Yes. That is the doctrine of command responsibility. Mere ignorance
of those crimes is not a defense. In Yama****a's case it was proven
that capital crimes were openly commotted within 200 yards of his
office showing that even if he was ignorant of those crimes, his
ignorance was willful at best. ALthough, unlike Remsfeld and Bush,
Yama****o did prove that he gave orders intended to prevent those
crimes it is also clear that he did not enforce those orders in
any effective way.


I also support the doctrine of command responsibility. While there
are, as of yet, only rumors that the abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan
were ordered, there are accusations that the responsible officers
took no action to prevent the abuses, which leaves those officers
without a defense. Further, the public sentiments toward prisoners
expressed by Secretary Rumsfeld, clearly fostered the abuses that
have been publicised during the last two years.

Google "Yama****a" and "Manila". Set a scary precident.

Not when you consider the factual evidence against Yama****a. His
defense was a sham. Note also that his conviction was uphelp
upon appeal to a Federal Court, demonstrating that trials conducted
outside of the US ARE subject to judicial review within the US.


Summary execution of suspected spies has been explicitley outlawed
since at least the 1907 Hague conventions.

Not true. E.g., some German sabateurs were executed in WW2.

Yes it is true. See the 1907 Hague Conventions. THey are online.

If
you mean, you have to try them in a military court before execution,
this is correct.

Of course. Please recall your earlier statement
"the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, [persons who do not
qualify as POWs] although other international conventions may.
Thus, e.g., you can still shoot spies.

I inferred that you meant summary execution. But to be clear,
suspected spies and sabotuers ARE protected under the 1949
Geneva Conventions, unti after conviction by a cometent court
or tribunal. either way the statement was factually incorrect,
though a very common misconception.


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5038963

I might be inclined to suppose that the soldier might not have
intended to kill the prisoner, but for now accept the use of
'murder' by Reuters.

Depends of the circumstances. E.g., supposed prisoners in Afganistan
revolted and killed severl US soldiers.

Not the instant case. But we need to read a transcript of the
actual news release. I've asked Mr Yardpilot to help us
out there.


And yes, prisoners are supposed to get some sort of hearing
to determine their POW status.

More than 'some sort'. The word 'competent', a legal term of
art, is used. Tribunals established by Presidential decree
would fail the competency test since the US Constitution
empowers the Congress to establish courts not the President
and past USSC cases have held that the Congress cannot delegate
authority to the President, when that authority is original
to the Congress in the Constitution.

Actually, it can be a military tribunal.


Yes, but it must be 'competent' a legal term of art that implies, a
at the very least, that it is legal according to the laws of the
detaining Power. Bush's proposed tribunals are, at best,
Constitutionally questionable.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Morton Davis" wrote in message
news:RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.goog le.com

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
naked, and other tortures are tortures.

No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
=)

Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up,
naked,
by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your
daughters
gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into
a
chipper/shredder?


I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.

Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.


I didn't deny torture is wrong, ****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.

-*MORT*-

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:RlPlc.31388$Ik.1945229@attbi_s53...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:


"Pooched" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"

wrote:

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think
they
can
get
away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?


I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:

http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_co...=1111_0_10_0_C

Doesn't support your claim.


That's a damn lie.

No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about
supports
the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to
other
countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l


I believe when you wrote:
" I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?"
you were refering to "A Canadian Muslim recently went through this."
which was amply proven by the sources provided.

You really don't read newspapers, do you?

Spin away, "Fred." The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
claim, and you know it.

"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 May 2004 01:43:36 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:
SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
his priests to see the world as it really is!

So, you can't support your claim. No surprise there.


You seem to be hung up

You seem to be unable to support claims made.

"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...&ie=UTF-8&oe=U
TF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.goog le.com

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on.

Gee, another stupid punk drops in making ridiculous, baseless comments just to
get responses. You need to get out of the house once in awhile, moron.l

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:jwhlc.18904$kh4.1100203@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis"
wrote:


"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
. com...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02...

Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
doing crap like this.

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can
get away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

It's not not good.

In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.


Not by accepted definitions of torture.


How Republican of you to point that out. Lets see you stand in the
same 1 foot circle for 48 hours. Lets see you not be allowed to sleep
for 4 days.

Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he

Perhaps he can support huis claim instead, "fred."

"Morton Davis" wrote in message
news:7%3mc.26860$IG1.1141540@attbi_s04...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Morton Davis" wrote in message
news:RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you he



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.goog le.com

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
naked, and other tortures are tortures.

No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
=)

Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up,
naked,
by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your
daughters
gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into
a
chipper/shredder?


I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.

Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.


I didn't deny torture is wrong, ****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.

The fact that Saddam condoned and ordered such things while the US punishes
those caught doing much less escapes them.

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report
from a
soldier.

Free free to prove your assertion.

This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up the
name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.