Fatal crash Arizona

At 17:01 07 May 2014, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:34:48 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
=20
The point is when conditions allow, a pilot should know how to turn
back
=
safely.

Precisely. It's called airmanship - knowing how to handle your plane in
an=
y conceivable situation.

If you aren't practicing something new and unusual (or at least thinking
ab=
out it) on every flight, you are limiting your growth as a pilot.

My one real PTT happened at Turf Soaring (Pleasant Valley Airport) many
yea=
rs ago, giving a ride in old 66W - a beat up old 2-32. Tow rope was
hooked=
up incorrectly (muddy) and released just past the end of the runway
(takin=
g off to the East) at what i guess was around 150 - 200 ft, no more. No
go=
od options other than turning back or landing in the desert; so I turned
ba=
ck...and had enough energy to roll back up to the surprised line boy who
ha=
d just launched me. Turned the glider around, hooked up again, and the
cus=
tomer got his full ride the second time.

BUT--conditions were calm with light winds and no lift; and the tow was
fas=
t - and it was pretty easy to whip that big old beast around in a steep
tur=
n and bring it back to land, as I had a lot of time in 2-32s at the time.
N=
ever felt that I was too low during the turn, but didn't even try getting
r=
eal slow (if you have time in 2-32s you will appreciate why!).

Yes, it can be done. But you have to know your plane WELL, and have the
ri=
ght conditions, and fully understand the consequences of pooching it!

Get out there and practice!

Kirk
66

and that dear reader illustrates the problem nicely. Emergency procedures
do not have to be formulated for experienced thinking pilots. I would like
to think that I could get away with doing what Kirk has done. Emergency
procedures have to be formulated for the lowest common denominator, would a
low launches pilot be able to achieve success? Would a relatively
experience pilot who is flying minimum launches per year cope with it? That
is what formulating procedures is all about, having something that everyone
can achieve, not just the top 10%.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:40:09 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 17:01 07 May 2014, kirk.stant wrote:

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:34:48 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

=20

The point is when conditions allow, a pilot should know how to turn

back

=

safely.



Precisely. It's called airmanship - knowing how to handle your plane in

an=

y conceivable situation.



If you aren't practicing something new and unusual (or at least thinking

ab=

out it) on every flight, you are limiting your growth as a pilot.



My one real PTT happened at Turf Soaring (Pleasant Valley Airport) many

yea=

rs ago, giving a ride in old 66W - a beat up old 2-32. Tow rope was

hooked=

up incorrectly (muddy) and released just past the end of the runway

(takin=

g off to the East) at what i guess was around 150 - 200 ft, no more. No

go=

od options other than turning back or landing in the desert; so I turned

ba=

ck...and had enough energy to roll back up to the surprised line boy who

ha=

d just launched me. Turned the glider around, hooked up again, and the

cus=

tomer got his full ride the second time.



BUT--conditions were calm with light winds and no lift; and the tow was

fas=

t - and it was pretty easy to whip that big old beast around in a steep

tur=

n and bring it back to land, as I had a lot of time in 2-32s at the time..

N=

ever felt that I was too low during the turn, but didn't even try getting

r=

eal slow (if you have time in 2-32s you will appreciate why!).



Yes, it can be done. But you have to know your plane WELL, and have the

ri=

ght conditions, and fully understand the consequences of pooching it!



Get out there and practice!



Kirk

66



and that dear reader illustrates the problem nicely. Emergency procedures

do not have to be formulated for experienced thinking pilots. I would like

to think that I could get away with doing what Kirk has done. Emergency

procedures have to be formulated for the lowest common denominator, would a

low launches pilot be able to achieve success? Would a relatively

experience pilot who is flying minimum launches per year cope with it? That

is what formulating procedures is all about, having something that everyone

can achieve, not just the top 10%.

So, if the dumbest, least competent guy on the airfield might not be able to pull it off the UK solution is to eliminate the requirement for everybody? Talk about dumbing down.

I'm absolutely sure I can pull off at turn back and I'm certain my students can as well. I'll probably have to when I take a check ride in a couple of weeks in a 2-32. If so, the examiner will give me no warning whatsoever when he pulls the release at 200' AGL on departure. No sweat - even though there's no off field options.

I've had it happen for real many times including a couple of "What's this gizmo do?" on ride flights. I've watched post solo students pull it off when a rope broke. If we had not trained for this skill, we wouldn't be here. It's a lifesaver.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:40:09 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
Emergency procedures do not have to be formulated for experienced thinking pilots.

Why do so many experienced thinking pilots enter spins from low altitude turns?

I want to know because I'm becoming more experienced and thoughtful with every flight.

Why do so many experienced thinking pilots enter spins from low altitude turns?

I want to know because I'm becoming more experienced and thoughtful with every flight.

My sincere sympathies to the friends and family of this pilot. John did a great job explaining the the answer to this question: Why do experienced pilots spin in low. Here is a link to his thoughts:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/john$20cochrane|sort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/ibhUAkQ6Z1s/8WoOYyZIlqEJ

Stay safe,
Bruno - B4

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 3:37:26 PM UTC+12, wrote:
Why do so many experienced thinking pilots enter spins from low altitude turns?

I want to know because I'm becoming more experienced and thoughtful with every flight.

My sincere sympathies to the friends and family of this pilot. John did a great job explaining the the answer to this question: Why do experienced pilots spin in low. Here is a link to his thoughts:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/john$20cochrane|sort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/ibhUAkQ6Z1s/8WoOYyZIlqEJ

Hi Bruno, and thanks for all the great videos.

I agree with what John says there. The primary one is that around steep hills adverse horizontal gusts are a much bigger danger than many people realise, and a bigger danger than sink.

I vary my speed a lot. When I'm pointing at the rocks, or low over them, I want to see 65-70 knots on the clock on a normal day. A sudden 20 knot gust up the tail isn't going to stall me. If it's windy then I'll use 80.

As soon as I'm pointing away from the ridge and suddenly have hundreds of feet under the nose I'm happy to drop it back to 50 or 55, and accelerate again as I turn back towards the hill.

You can see an example here, in a video a passenger shot back in 2009 on their iPhone 3GS (the new ones are MUCH better).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU8IDDBgwg0

Remember: it's not actually the gust from behind and loss of airspeed that makes you stall and spin -- it's only if/when YOU pull the stick back to try to stop the nose from dropping (or to tighten the turn). If you keep the stick in the same place it was before the gust then YOU CAN NOT STALL/SPIN. The nose will drop. You'll eventually speed up again. Nothing worse than that will happen provided there is nothing solid in front of you, even if the ASI is reading well below your 1 G stall speed.

The bigger mystery is why competent people stall and spin over flat land, on the notorious turn from base to final.

If it's windy then the gradient can explain it. The lower wingtip gets less windspeed, less lift. The upper wingtip gets more speed, more lift. You could get rolled a lot, rather than a spin as such. Still not healthy. Turning higher can keep you out of the gradient. Flying faster will keep everything flying and give you more control authority.

That's on turns into wind (for landing). With turns away from the wind (turning back after a PTT), the gradient helps you into the turn at the start, but helps right you as you complete it.

Not that I want to be landing downwind on a day with enough wind to have that kind of gradient!! Fortunately, on those days you should have plenty of height over the fence to do a proper circuit.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 9:51:43 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

Why do so many experienced thinking pilots enter spins from low altitude turns?

The explanations offered for ridge flyers make sense. I wonder if risk taken in normal ridge flying (and the low-altitude experience gained) reduce pattern spin risk?

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:00:20 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

The bigger mystery is why competent people stall and spin over flat land, on the notorious turn from base to final.

Just after posting my question, I found something in Dr. Dan's latest Soaring RX column "How to Spin Unintentionally":

Dr. Dan wrote in Soaring Magazine May 2014:
"We may get into trouble because we spend too much of our time soaring and not enough doing pattern tows. Our brains then build patterns that don't include the sensations of low-level flight. A reason to go to the airfield and do pattern work on poor soaring days is to rebuild those low-level gestalts, so that our brains easily shift from the high-altitude to the low-altitude vection sensations as both being normal and expected."

This is a compelling idea. As the average duration of my flights gets longer, I get relatively more experience flying at high-altitude than at low-altitude. I spent a much higher percentage of my time doing pattern tows as a student pilot. As a student, I was much more current at low-altitude flight. Dr. Dan recommends pattern tows to keep my low-altitude proficiency current and in balance with my ever stronger high-altitude proficiency.

Dr. Dan also notes (as have others) that soaring pilots can refresh their proficiency in low-altitude flight by practicing ground reference maneuvers in a power plane (with a CFI that is current in low-level flight).

So the next time that the lift does not materialize at the airport, I will 'waste money' on some pattern tows. I also plan to 'waste money' flying ground-reference maneuvers in a power plane with a current CFI.