How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive an airplane crash?

I'm pretty sure the amount of cyanide varies widely from one airplane
fire to another, but there is no time to measure it.

as I understand it the HCN is produced when plastics containing
nitrogen burn in an oxygen poor environment. Stuff like synthetic
rubber upholstery, pulyurethane foam insulation and and melamine
tray-tables

As I understand it, this is akin to the major reason you're supposed
to get out of a computer room if the Halon extinguishers are
triggered. The Halon itself isn't particularly hazardous (at the
concentrations used in these systems), but the combustion byproducts
from burning plastics and etc. are really nasty. The Halon suppresses
some of the flame reactions and stops the fire, but it doesn't get rid
of the poisonous partially-combusted plastics and other decomposed
flammables.

In article ,
(David Platt) wrote:

I'm pretty sure the amount of cyanide varies widely from one airplane
fire to another, but there is no time to measure it.

as I understand it the HCN is produced when plastics containing
nitrogen burn in an oxygen poor environment. Stuff like synthetic
rubber upholstery, pulyurethane foam insulation and and melamine
tray-tables

As I understand it, this is akin to the major reason you're supposed
to get out of a computer room if the Halon extinguishers are
triggered. The Halon itself isn't particularly hazardous (at the
concentrations used in these systems), but the combustion byproducts
from burning plastics and etc. are really nasty. The Halon suppresses
some of the flame reactions and stops the fire, but it doesn't get rid
of the poisonous partially-combusted plastics and other decomposed
flammables.

The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is
displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the
"air" part of the old fire triangle).
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On 5/17/2014 5:39 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
As I understand it, this is akin to the major reason you're supposed
to get out of a computer room if the Halon extinguishers are
triggered. The Halon itself isn't particularly hazardous (at the
concentrations used in these systems), but the combustion byproducts
from burning plastics and etc. are really nasty. The Halon suppresses
some of the flame reactions and stops the fire, but it doesn't get rid
of the poisonous partially-combusted plastics and other decomposed
flammables.

The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is
displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the
"air" part of the old fire triangle).


I've taken some fire training courses. Halon is low
enough levels, that one can remain in the room. I've
seen movies of a test dump. The guy looked a bit
frieked out but was OK at the end of the movie.

There were some system using carbon dioxide, and
those displace oxygen.

Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle,
sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire
tetrahedron.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:


I've taken some fire training courses. Halon is low
enough levels, that one can remain in the room. I've
seen movies of a test dump. The guy looked a bit
frieked out but was OK at the end of the movie.


Price I pay for relying on 30+ year old memories.


Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle,
sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire
tetrahedron.

One of my mentors suggested a fire pentahedron.
fuel, heat, oxidation material, chemical reaction, and Chief
Officers. You take any one away and the fire goes out.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On Sat, 17 May 2014 06:53:49 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

There were some system using carbon dioxide, and
those displace oxygen.

Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle,
sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire
tetrahedron.

Thank you Stormin' Mormon, for explaining that the proposed
supposition that halon displaced oxygen was not supported in the
literature.

I found a similar explanation to yours in this FAA book on
aircraft Fire Protection Systems:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/ama_Ch17.pdf

It's pretty troubling that some people believe stuff that has
absolutely zero references in the literature that backs up their
claims.

I'm glad you're not one of them!

On 5/17/2014 12:22 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2014 06:53:49 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

There were some system using carbon dioxide, and
those displace oxygen.

Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle,
sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire
tetrahedron.

Thank you Stormin' Mormon, for explaining that the proposed
supposition that halon displaced oxygen was not supported in the
literature.

I found a similar explanation to yours in this FAA book on
aircraft Fire Protection Systems:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/ama_Ch17.pdf

It's pretty troubling that some people believe stuff that has
absolutely zero references in the literature that backs up their
claims.

I'm glad you're not one of them!

As I remember from my fire protection courses,
that (not displacing oxygen) was one of the
advantages of halon. Of course, the government
found it to be ozone toxic and outlawed it.

Put that on the list of "if it works, outlaw
it" along with DDT and machine guns.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sat, 17 May 2014 15:21:15 -0700, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

...snip....
As I remember from my fire protection courses,
that (not displacing oxygen) was one of the
advantages of halon. Of course, the government
found it to be ozone toxic and outlawed it.

Put that on the list of "if it works, outlaw
it" along with DDT and machine guns.


Yes, but *if* you already have the extinguisher, you're allowed to refill
it! So I bought three. One for kitchen, one for the car, and one for the
electronic lab.

On Sat, 17 May 2014 05:39:45 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is
displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the
"air" part of the old fire triangle).

Hmmmmmm... isn't that the *opposite* of how Halon works in a fire?

I tried to find an airplane cabin fire article that backed you up.

For example, this was the first hit:
http://www.h3raviation.com/news_avoiding_mayday.htm

But, all that article said was that the carbon monoxide from the
aircraft cabin fire would displace the oxygen.

And, specifically, it said that halon does *not* "displace the oxygen"
which is how carbon dioxide extinguishers work.

Here's what the article said, verbatim (in part) about the benefits:
---------------------------------
Halon is an effective agent on Class B and C fires, the ones you're most
likely to see in an aircraft.

It works in gas form, so it will not obscure your vision like the powder
emitted from dry chemical extinguishers. Basically, it's invisible.

As a gas, it's capable of getting into hard-to-reach places like the
inner workings of your instrument panel.

It's a non-corrosive clean agent, which means it won't damage items
it comes into contact with.

It won't shock-cool your avionics.

It's lighter and more efficient than CO2.
Halons are low-toxicity, chemically stable compounds.

Sounds perfect, right? Well, there are a few drawbacks.

We said that Halon has low toxicity. But it's not benign or entirely non-toxic,
and you wouldn't want to introduce it to your respiratory system given the choice.
"But everyone, including the FAA, recognizes that it's better to put out the fire
effectively than to worry about breathing the Halon,"

In article ,
Ann Marie Brest wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2014 05:39:45 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is
displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the
"air" part of the old fire triangle).

Hmmmmmm... isn't that the *opposite* of how Halon works in a fire?

Yep. As I mentioned I was trying to go with 30 year old memories.
That, and I never did inspections....
--
“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.�
— Aaron Levenstein

On 5/17/2014 12:19 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2014 05:39:45 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is
displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the
"air" part of the old fire triangle).


And, specifically, it said that halon does *not* "displace the oxygen"
which is how carbon dioxide extinguishers work.


At least that part of my memory works.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..