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At 21:18 15 June 2014, Bill D wrote:
I cannot argue against the above. From what I have read in this thread I have gained the impression that in the event of a launch failure at 200ft or above the recommended procedure is to turn back to the runway. This is completely different from what I have taught for 45 years. In the event of any launch failure the question that should be asked is "Can I land ahead" If the answer is "yes" then land ahead, height does not come into it at all. If, and only if the answer is "No" or "Not sure" should another action be considered and executed.=20 In any event I would never simulate a launch failure at 200 ft if there was not room to land ahead. I would and do simulate launch failures at 300ft and above if there is no room to land ahead and allow students to practice this, turning back as necessary. The reason is simple, while a pilot may be faced with having to turn back at 200 ft the risks in doing so are not justified in training, in the same way that we do not practice very low winch launch failures, just after lift off, or practice ground loops to avoid obstacles both of which are covered by briefings. We do set up the ultra low level launch failure situation from a normal approach but we never simulate it off the launch because of the dangers involved.=20 There will always be circumstances where the "normal" procedure is not possible but we do stress that the important part of the outcome is that the pilot has the best chance of survival, an undamaged glider is not a priority in these circumstances. What you were taught relates to winch launch only. Different rules apply t= o aero tow. With aero tow at 200' AGL on departure it is almost never poss= ible to land ahead on the runway. Either turn or land in whatever terrain = is available off the end of the runway. In many aero tow only airfields, t= hat terrain is not suitable for a safe landing. No, what I was taught and what I teach applies to ALL launch failures, winch, auto tow, and aerotow as detailed above. The first action is to select the appropriate attitude, at least approach attitude and make sure that you have a minimum of approach speed. Then ask the question, "Can I land ahead" If and ONLY if the answer is NO or NOT SURE should any other action be considered. |
#2
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While I agree that landing straight ahead is best if there is room, your
sequence of events is wrong. On an aerotow the question whether to land ahead or turn should be made on every launch! "Then ask the question" will lead to overload and grief! On tow, once you have decided you cannot land ahead then it may be a turn to an off-field landing if possible, followed by a 180 turn back to runway when safe. (That will invariably be at least 200') I repeat: after a failure is not the time to be thinking about where to go! Tom No, what I was taught and what I teach applies to ALL launch failures, winch, auto tow, and aerotow as detailed above. The first action is to select the appropriate attitude, at least approach attitude and make sure that you have a minimum of approach speed. Then ask the question, "Can I land ahead" If and ONLY if the answer is NO or NOT SURE should any other action be considered. |
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May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch to
a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every moment should the rope / tug break. Should it then happen you already have the decision made and only have to execute it well. If you, or your trainee, start to do this every launch you will be amazed at what poor decisions you would make to begin with. These get better with the doing of it. Jim At 00:18 16 June 2014, Tom Claffey wrote: While I agree that landing straight ahead is best if there is room, your sequence of events is wrong. On an aerotow the question whether to land ahead or turn should be made on every launch! "Then ask the question" will lead to overload and grief! On tow, once you have decided you cannot land ahead then it may be a turn to an off-field landing if possible, followed by a 180 turn back to runway when safe. (That will invariably be at least 200') I repeat: after a failure is not the time to be thinking about where to go! Tom No, what I was taught and what I teach applies to ALL launch failures, winch, auto tow, and aerotow as detailed above. The first action is to select the appropriate attitude, at least approach attitude and make sure that you have a minimum of approach speed. Then ask the question, "Can I land ahead" If and ONLY if the answer is NO or NOT SURE should any other action be considered. |
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At 07:15 16 June 2014, Jim White wrote:
May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch t a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every momen should the rope / tug break. Should it then happen you already have th decision made and only have to execute it well. I thought that was supposed to be part of the training! |
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On 6/16/2014 4:13 AM, Z Goudie wrote:
At 07:15 16 June 2014, Jim White wrote: May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch t a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every momen should the rope / tug break. Should it then happen you already have th decision made and only have to execute it well. I thought that was supposed to be part of the training! Z - the very man who sent me solo at Portmoak all those years ago. |
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At 14:44 16 June 2014, Fred Bear wrote:
On 6/16/2014 4:13 AM, Z Goudie wrote: At 07:15 16 June 2014, Jim White wrote: May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch t a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every momen should the rope / tug break. Should it then happen you already have th decision made and only have to execute it well. I thought that was supposed to be part of the training! Z - the very man who sent me solo at Portmoak all those years ago. The thing that concerns me is the change to rotax tugs. On Sunday I watched one tow a skylark up,perfect ,but 2 fat pilots in a duo full of water and we are talking curve of the earth,assuming you can get it rolling in the first place.Historicly we had accidents and learned how to not have them. But heavier gliders,weaker tugs and steam comes from my ears when I see the launch point set up 1/3 of the way down the runway,because its easier to get passengers to the glider and you can land behind.Explain that to the family after Joe pilot coudn't land ahead because it was more convenient. Rant over,my sinsera condolances to the family of the pilot who started this at a terrible price. |
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On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:06:19 AM UTC+12, Jonathon May wrote:
At 14:44 16 June 2014, Fred Bear wrote: But heavier gliders,weaker tugs and steam comes from my ears when I see the launch point set up 1/3 of the way down the runway,because its easier to get passengers to the glider and you can land behind. Yeah, we did that recently when we had an away weekend at a 6500 ft strip on a dairy farm instead of our usual 2000 ft strip in the middle of a town. Definitely convenient. |
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On Monday, June 16, 2014 12:15:07 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch to a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every moment should the rope / tug break. Should it then happen you already have the decision made and only have to execute it well. If you, or your trainee, start to do this every launch you will be amazed at what poor decisions you would make to begin with. These get better with the doing of it. Jim Delightful. Since it was about a hundred posts ago I offered the same concept, may I say, "Thank you." I am heartened to know that there are others out there who prefer to be prepared and updating their situational awareness during launch, rather than becoming off-launch and then begin 'assessing' the choices. If the assessment is ongoing, the execution of the 'best choice' becomes pretty relaxed. And if we fly to the landing, it is so much more likely to be survivable than falling to an impact. Thanks, Jim. Cindy B |
#9
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On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:47:20 PM UTC+12, CindyB wrote:
On Monday, June 16, 2014 12:15:07 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote: May I offer a practical tip? Talk to yourself all the way up the launch to a safe height (perhaps 500ft), deciding where you will go at every moment Delightful. Since it was about a hundred posts ago I offered the same concept, may I say, "Thank you." !!!! It would never have occurred to me that this was not assumed by all in the conversation. Here in NZ, students are frequently asked "where would you go now?" |
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At 01:18 18 June 2014, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Here in NZ, students are frequently asked "where would you go now?" Hi Bruce, can you tell us what the teaching is in NZ is about this? Do you teach 180 degree turns at 200ft? |
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