Contest Class Development for Future Success - The Case fordeveloping the Handicapped Classes

Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?
...
If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.


"Will" is from my memory of last RC minutes, available on ssa.org if you want to check. Club will be everything on the US team club class list handicap range, running from ventus 1 down to about 1.10. Gliders below 1.10 will not be sent home, but will not get further handicap.

It seemed a little silly to let in gliders with 0.90 handicap (ventus 1, asw20) and exclude gliders with 0.915 handicap (D2,28, LS8) just because they are newer. Also, it is important to craft a place for standard class to go in view of its possible demise as a separate class.

This will all certainly be revisited over and over and over again. Nothing ever seems to be settled with rules.

The best racing experience combines narrower handicap ranges and larger number of pilots. In my opinion, and that of most pilots I've talked to, classes of 5 people at regionals and 8 at nationals -- the bare minimum -- with narrower handicap ranges are less fun, and less quality race, than classes of 25 people with broader handicap ranges.

We all want 50 gliders in pure FAI classes or one design. We have to write rules for the world we have not the one we'd dream of having. But the tradeoff between handicap range and size of fleet will be one I'm sure we will revisit over and over again.

The 15 meter + standard FAI class with handicaps down to 0.94 sounds to me like a great solution for many racers. These gliders cost half what a new 18 meter glider costs, there are hundreds, maybe a thousand or more good gliders in the country, so it's basically one design racing for the foreseeable future.

John Cochrane

I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.


Numbers on gliders here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ticipation.pdf

It's amazing how many raceable gliders there are, that don't race. Our problem is not lack of gliders, it's lack of pilots who want to race them

John Cochrane

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:22:13 AM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:


I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.





Numbers on gliders here



http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ticipation.pdf



It's amazing how many raceable gliders there are, that don't race. Our problem is not lack of gliders, it's lack of pilots who want to race them



John Cochrane

Many of the "modern" Std class ships have been bought from racers, who originally imported them for competition, by recreational pilots who wanted good performance and low age (good gelcoat). Many of these(most?), likely won't come play in contests, or maybe an occasional convenient regional.
My observation supports John's in this respect.
UH

I disagree that these super standard gliders should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.

First, the idea of the ASW20 being of higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the air flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close as we are ever going to get to laboratory sailplane racing conditions. The 28, LS8 and D2 are vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. ;-) and this is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range is so important.

These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in a any class with the word Club in its title. Its awful that the standard class is dying, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.

The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the International Club class as much as possible. They wanted real racing! They wanted assigned tasking. They wanted to have fun and select the best US pilots for the World Championships.

Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves "by including the words Club in what is clearly "US Catch All Class" which ranges currently ranges from 126 to D2? The "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever. We are all going to going to continue to endure alot of irritation if the word Club is left in the name of this Class. It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus to what Club Class represent to the group that made the US Club Class a class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.

A D2 racing a task against a Libelle? Seriously? Whats the point?

In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap.


Sean



On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!

John cochrane

I disagree that the last generation of standard class racing gliders (D2, LS8, ASW28) should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.

First (flame suit on), the idea of the ASW20 being higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the art in flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde in 15m class. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close to laboratory sailplane racing conditions as we are ever going to get. The 28, LS8 and D2 are likely vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. This is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range for classes is so important (not spreading everyone around as much as possible).

These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in any class with the word Club in its title. Its sad to see that the standard class is dead in the USA, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.

The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the highly successful International Club Class as much as possible. They wanted real racing in the US! They wanted assigned tasking in the US. They wanted to have enjoyable, meaningful racing for their older generation, lower performance gliders (exclusively) and select the best US pilots for the Club Class World Championships.

Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves" by including the word Club in what is clearly more of a "US Catch All Class" which currently ranges from 126 to D2? Our "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever although that was clearly the main driver for the class being created.

We are all going to continue to endure alot of "dissatisfaction" if the word Club is left in the name of this new "class." It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus on what US Club Class was intended represent to the group that really founded the US Club Class a class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.

A D2 racing a task against a Libelle or Sarah's ASW-15? Seriously? Whats the point of that?

In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap. 2 Classes,2 National contests is plenty. There is no good reason to artificially include them in a third class that by definition specifically does not include them ANYWHERE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD.


Sean


On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!

John cochrane

I disagree that the last generation of standard class racing gliders (D2, LS8, ASW28) should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.

First (flame suit on), the idea of the ASW20 being higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the art in flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde in 15m class. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close to laboratory sailplane racing conditions as we are ever going to get. The 28, LS8 and D2 are likely vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. This is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range for classes is so important (not spreading everyone around as much as possible).

These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in any class with the word Club in its title. Its sad to see that the standard class is dead in the USA, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.

The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the highly successful International Club Class as much as possible. They wanted real racing in the US! They wanted assigned tasking in the US. They wanted to have enjoyable, meaningful racing for their older generation, lower performance gliders (exclusively) and select the best US pilots for the Club Class World Championships.

Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves" by including the word Club in what is clearly more of a "US Catch All Class" which currently ranges from 126 to D2? Our "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever although that was clearly the main driver for the class being created.

We are all going to continue to endure alot of "dissatisfaction" if the word Club is left in the name of this new "class." It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus on what US Club Class was intended represent to the group that really founded the US Club Class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.

A D2 racing a 25 mile radius area task against a Libelle or Sarah's ASW-15? Seriously? Whats the point of that? How is that any different than Sports class? Look at the tasks they are flying this week actually. Might as well be OLC.

In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap. 2 Classes, 2 National contests is plenty for the standard glider owners to choose from. There is no good reason to artificially include them in a third class that by definition specifically does not include them ANYWHERE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Sean

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!

John cochrane

Sean -

Too late - standard class are already within the club class handicap range and no when dry they dont go any better than a ASW20. (flaps you understand)

The IGC club class list is driven by what is representative of club equipment largely in Germany.

I know many German clubs that have multiple LS8s, and D2s as well as LS4's in their fleet (hell one club I know has a ASG29!!) Its only a matter of time before the *official* IGC list adopts these gliders into the list. The list by definition will change with time as older higher performance gliders filter down into the general european club population.

Lower performance club class ships are preferred in many instances because of the option of using following tactics on the higher handicap gliders and then do well on handicap. Beyond a certain handicap difference this becomes unsustainable. (good - go fly your own flight).

Club class is patently NOT about the mano-et-mano one class no handicap racing you so love. It is all about providing the best compromise of racing in a range of handicaps that are affordable relative to the cost of new production gliders. Emphasis on compromise. Its the inherent difficulty with club class but without it you do NOT HAVE a club class.

Club class specifically excludes 126's and gliders that have such a wide handicap difference that they preclude any sense of racing or fair tasking - to some, that range is too high as it is - even though it is significantly smaller than the current Sports Class range. A wider handicap range in club is inevitable by design - we might argue about what the range is or should be but we only have the IGC handicap range to go on as a guide. Again - compromise.

The handicap rating system has been developed over many years by good knowledgable people and it has a well understood basis of development. It can be improved certainly but changing handicaps (up or down) requires real data not opinions to support this. Many people may have perceptions about the supposed accuracy or otherwise of a particular gliders handicap - few of them can back that up with direct personal experience that also survives rational inspection.

Lastly - If US Club class was really a *US* club class everyone would be flying 1-26,s, G103's, G102's, K21's, K23's and the like - thats all that would fit the *club equipment* list since thats pretty much what our small fractured club culture runs and owns.

As it is, the only real direction we can take in emulating the IGC club class in the USA is the handicap range of the IGC list since we have no similar Club infrastructure. So think of Club class as an attempt to emulate the European Club ship contest environment with a similar range of handicaps in lower cost private owned gliders.

Yes - Modern Standard is low cost - less than half the price of a ASG29.

2T


On Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
I disagree that these super standard gliders should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.



First, the idea of the ASW20 being of higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the air flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close as we are ever going to get to laboratory sailplane racing conditions. The 28, LS8 and D2 are vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. ;-) and this is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range is so important.



These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in a any class with the word Club in its title. Its awful that the standard class is dying, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.



The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the International Club class as much as possible. They wanted real racing! They wanted assigned tasking. They wanted to have fun and select the best US pilots for the World Championships.



Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves "by including the words Club in what is clearly "US Catch All Class" which ranges currently ranges from 126 to D2? The "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever. We are all going to going to continue to endure alot of irritation if the word Club is left in the name of this Class. It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus to what Club Class represent to the group that made the US Club Class a class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.



A D2 racing a task against a Libelle? Seriously? Whats the point?



In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap.





Sean







On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:

Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!



John cochrane

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:22:41 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
I disagree that the last generation of standard class racing gliders (D2, LS8, ASW28) should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.



First (flame suit on), the idea of the ASW20 being higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the art in flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde in 15m class. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close to laboratory sailplane racing conditions as we are ever going to get. The 28, LS8 and D2 are likely vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. This is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range for classes is so important (not spreading everyone around as much as possible).



These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in any class with the word Club in its title. Its sad to see that the standard class is dead in the USA, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.



The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the highly successful International Club Class as much as possible. They wanted real racing in the US! They wanted assigned tasking in the US. They wanted to have enjoyable, meaningful racing for their older generation, lower performance gliders (exclusively) and select the best US pilots for the Club Class World Championships.



Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves" by including the word Club in what is clearly more of a "US Catch All Class" which currently ranges from 126 to D2? Our "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever although that was clearly the main driver for the class being created.



We are all going to continue to endure alot of "dissatisfaction" if the word Club is left in the name of this new "class." It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus on what US Club Class was intended represent to the group that really founded the US Club Class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.



A D2 racing a 25 mile radius area task against a Libelle or Sarah's ASW-15? Seriously? Whats the point of that? How is that any different than Sports class? Look at the tasks they are flying this week actually. Might as well be OLC.



In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap. 2 Classes, 2 National contests is plenty for the standard glider owners to choose from. There is no good reason to artificially include them in a third class that by definition specifically does not include them ANYWHERE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD.



Sean



My experience as a participant differs from your viewpoint. Flying a "modern" Std class glider in Club last year was a disadvantage. I could not shake the pesky LS-3A and 304 and was consistently giving them points due to the following advantage(and very good pilots).
That said, now that Club will be away from Sports stating next year, I think the range on the low performance side should move to match the low performance end of the IGC list. This will make AT tasking viable and fair.
This just in Clubbies- 2015 Club is at Hobbs with the 18's and at Wurtsboro in 2016 as a stand alone. mark your calendars.
UH/OH

Arrrgh. Too Late? Its never too late ;-)!

The point is the handicap range should be as narrow as possible, not as wide as possible. Not many clubs are putting ASK21's on the road to go to contests. Club Class exists in the US becuase a group of Club Owners wanted their own class, and they wanted that Class to be the International Club Class as much as possible (even FAI rules for many.......).

The state of the art standard boys are more than welcomed, and should only want to be in Modern Class or 15m Class (soon?). That is what modern class is for! Modern gliders, no?

Why would someone with a D2 want to race a Libelle (not an ASW27,Duo Discus or a Ventus 2) and then assure themselves of racing big turn area tasks every day?

Why allow, encourage or promote that kind of unfair and unnecessary handicap range within a class that clear does not want it when 2 other choices are available to them?

I just do not get how so many smart people see this so differently than I. Why is it so important to the powers that be to include these guys in not only Modern and 15m but Club Class? It makes no sense to me. But I am not alone. Most of the guys on my side of this argument already own Club Class ships and want better competition.

I would vote to not include them. Ill leave it there.


On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Sean -



Too late - standard class are already within the club class handicap range and no when dry they dont go any better than a ASW20. (flaps you understand)



The IGC club class list is driven by what is representative of club equipment largely in Germany.



I know many German clubs that have multiple LS8s, and D2s as well as LS4's in their fleet (hell one club I know has a ASG29!!) Its only a matter of time before the *official* IGC list adopts these gliders into the list. The list by definition will change with time as older higher performance gliders filter down into the general european club population.



Lower performance club class ships are preferred in many instances because of the option of using following tactics on the higher handicap gliders and then do well on handicap. Beyond a certain handicap difference this becomes unsustainable. (good - go fly your own flight).



Club class is patently NOT about the mano-et-mano one class no handicap racing you so love. It is all about providing the best compromise of racing in a range of handicaps that are affordable relative to the cost of new production gliders. Emphasis on compromise. Its the inherent difficulty with club class but without it you do NOT HAVE a club class.



Club class specifically excludes 126's and gliders that have such a wide handicap difference that they preclude any sense of racing or fair tasking - to some, that range is too high as it is - even though it is significantly smaller than the current Sports Class range. A wider handicap range in club is inevitable by design - we might argue about what the range is or should be but we only have the IGC handicap range to go on as a guide. Again - compromise.



The handicap rating system has been developed over many years by good knowledgable people and it has a well understood basis of development. It can be improved certainly but changing handicaps (up or down) requires real data not opinions to support this. Many people may have perceptions about the supposed accuracy or otherwise of a particular gliders handicap - few of them can back that up with direct personal experience that also survives rational inspection.



Lastly - If US Club class was really a *US* club class everyone would be flying 1-26,s, G103's, G102's, K21's, K23's and the like - thats all that would fit the *club equipment* list since thats pretty much what our small fractured club culture runs and owns.



As it is, the only real direction we can take in emulating the IGC club class in the USA is the handicap range of the IGC list since we have no similar Club infrastructure. So think of Club class as an attempt to emulate the European Club ship contest environment with a similar range of handicaps in lower cost private owned gliders.



Yes - Modern Standard is low cost - less than half the price of a ASG29.



2T





On Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:

I disagree that these super standard gliders should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.







First, the idea of the ASW20 being of higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the air flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close as we are ever going to get to laboratory sailplane racing conditions. The 28, LS8 and D2 are vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. ;-) and this is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range is so important.







These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in a any class with the word Club in its title. Its awful that the standard class is dying, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.







The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the International Club class as much as possible. They wanted real racing! They wanted assigned tasking. They wanted to have fun and select the best US pilots for the World Championships.







Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves "by including the words Club in what is clearly "US Catch All Class" which ranges currently ranges from 126 to D2? The "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever. We are all going to going to continue to endure alot of irritation if the word Club is left in the name of this Class. It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus to what Club Class represent to the group that made the US Club Class a class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.







A D2 racing a task against a Libelle? Seriously? Whats the point?







In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap.











Sean















On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:



Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!







John cochrane

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:04:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:

We probably need to discuss whether the objective is to limit the handicap range for more head to head racing or limit the range of pilots flying in Club Class.

If the objective is the first then the most productive thing to do is limit the low end of the performance range which really drags down tasking and is where almost all the spread in handicap is. If the objective is to exclude talented pilots then keep the modern standard class gliders out - there are a lot of very good pilots with no place to race right now. The facts don't support that those gliders should be excluded based on technical performance without ballast - quite the contrary. Data people - look at the data.

I expect IGC will include these ships in pretty short order so that may not be a good place to hang one's hat either.