Open Discussion; Creating XC pilots

I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC pilots?

Please don't be offended by these questions. I am just asking because at least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still waiting.

Bruno - B4

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 14:53:54 -0700, brunovassel wrote:

I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every
step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for
themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught
ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is
a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select
by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady
hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC
pilots?

I don't know how this ties in with usual US experience, but its normal
practise at my club in the UK.

- shortly after soloing I got my first XC ride in the club's Grob Acro
during our Regionals. The deal was that we got back seat in a comp.
flight and formed the Grob retrieval crew for the rest of the Regionals.
Seemed like a good deal.

- after soloing and converting to an SZD Junior I worked on the UK
Bronze badge: 50 solo flights, written and flying tests including
spot landings as the last checks before it was issued. During this
I'd also done Silver C height and duration legs.

- navigation, field selection, field landing exercises in an SF-25 TMG
plus 1 and 2 hour soaring flights got me the Bronze XC endorsement.

- within a week of getting the XC endorsement I was briefed and sent off
to do Silver C distance in a Junior: navigate the 68km to Rattlesden and
land there for a first taste of landing at an airfield I'd never seen
before. This was my first solo XC.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Friday, July 18, 2014 3:53:54 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC pilots?



Please don't be offended by these questions. I am just asking because at least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still waiting.



Bruno - B4

Bruno, I know of successful XC pilots who individually took one or the other of these approaches. It works either way but I tend to believe a few dual XC's is the better approach if that opportunity is available.

Then too, there's more than one way to learn. I listened very carefully to experienced XC pilots and read dozens of books before taking off on my own - less successfully at first and then progressively better with experience..

OTOH, some of those pilots who got dual XC training but spent little time with books or listening to veterans struggled for quite a while before they achieved anything significant. People are different.

As a side comment, almost all the information I came across was rather good at teaching one how to go fast or far in reasonably good conditions but less informative about how to recognize and manage situations that are starting to go bad. Most early XC flights are a series of recoveries from bad situations. I can see a lot of benefit from including this training.

On Friday, July 18, 2014 2:53:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves?

My path:

6 hrs Total Time: Solo (SGS 2-33, Elmira)
19 hrs TT: First flight of 1 hour or more - Sliver altitude (SGS 2-33 Frederick, MD)
41 hrs TT: Silver duration, Silver Distance (SGS 1-26, Estrella, AZ)
43 hrs TT: First outlanding (SGS 1-34, on a highway between Hobbs and Odessa, TX)
95 hrs TT: First contest flight (LS-3, Ionia, MI)
420 hrs TT: Diamond Goal (LS-4, El Tiro, AZ)

My first cross-country flights we on a soaring safari with my Dad and brother from the Mojave back to the east coast after picking up the first family glider - a 1-34. I guess I just got pushed out of the nest. I was lucky to have some early flights in gigantic western thermals and even so managed to land out. There was some coaching, but not a lot as I look back on it. It was just assumed that the goal was to go somewhere. Progressing through the badge system seemed like what you were supposed to do.

Club flying greatly slows the process down it seems to me - the general availability and 1-hour time limits on club ships.

I agree that 20-meter 2-seaters should be a huge benefit to helping people make the leap sooner rather than later. Getting a lot of 2-seaters to a Nephi-type event paired with people on the cusp of XC flying and experienced XC pilots could be a real boost.

9B

To follow Andy's lead:

Apr 86 - intro flight in a G-103. I flew the entire flight; takeoff,
aero tow, pattern, and landing. Prior Air Force with lots of formation
time... Soloed on 6th flight.
Nov 86 - Commercial add-on and started giving rides in a Twin Lark
Mar 87 - Winch checkout and giving rides in Twin Lark at Bond Springs,
NT, Australia
Jul 87 - Bought my first glider, a Mosquito B
Apr 88 - Second glider, an ASW-19b
Sep 88 - Started towing gliders
Mar 89 - Silver Badge
Sep 89 - Gold Badge
Jan 92 - Third glider, an LS-6a
Nov 94 - Diamond Badge

Some time in late 87 a friend, Fred Taylor, who also had a Mosquito
invited me to join him in riding the leading edge of a cold front west
of TSA, Texas Soaring Association. ...And the hook was set. Nowadays,
I don't bother taking off unless it appears I can go somewhere. It's
been a heck of a ride and it ain't over yet!

Dan Marotta

On 7/18/2014 7:16 PM, wrote:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 2:53:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves?
My path:

6 hrs Total Time: Solo (SGS 2-33, Elmira)
19 hrs TT: First flight of 1 hour or more - Sliver altitude (SGS 2-33 Frederick, MD)
41 hrs TT: Silver duration, Silver Distance (SGS 1-26, Estrella, AZ)
43 hrs TT: First outlanding (SGS 1-34, on a highway between Hobbs and Odessa, TX)
95 hrs TT: First contest flight (LS-3, Ionia, MI)
420 hrs TT: Diamond Goal (LS-4, El Tiro, AZ)

My first cross-country flights we on a soaring safari with my Dad and brother from the Mojave back to the east coast after picking up the first family glider - a 1-34. I guess I just got pushed out of the nest. I was lucky to have some early flights in gigantic western thermals and even so managed to land out. There was some coaching, but not a lot as I look back on it. It was just assumed that the goal was to go somewhere. Progressing through the badge system seemed like what you were supposed to do.

Club flying greatly slows the process down it seems to me - the general availability and 1-hour time limits on club ships.

I agree that 20-meter 2-seaters should be a huge benefit to helping people make the leap sooner rather than later. Getting a lot of 2-seaters to a Nephi-type event paired with people on the cusp of XC flying and experienced XC pilots could be a real boost.

9B

On 7/18/2014 3:53 PM, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step
of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for
themselves?
Snip

...I am just asking because at
least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught
themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still
waiting.

Assuming by "self-taught" you mean something along the lines of absorbing
basic instruction goal-oriented essentially toward one's ticket, during which
perhaps the mentioning of badges and a broad-brush intro to the basics of XC
flight/landing concepts occurred...along with the obvious expectation that of
COURSE every trainee would eventually go XC, then self-taught worked for me.

The only mental hurdle of any significance in my mind was the off-field
landing aspect, and the thought of hand-holding never occurred to me, even had
it been a possibility in the early 1970s (which it wasn't). A person either
elected to fly XC or chose not to, and I recall being surprised that there
were people who chose NOT to go XC. I didn't realize there were until after I
had my license...and by then it struck me as quite odd!

The concept/possibility of "hand-holding-based XC training" reminds me of
something engineers (my degree) are often accused of in the
manufacturing-oriented industries with which I'm familiar. Namely, engineers
need managers/sales-types/whomever around to pry from their designing,
grasping hands the widgets...or else said widgets would never go into
production, design perfection being arguably endemic to many engineers.
("Better" is the enemy of "good enough.")

Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where the
concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design perfection?" One
can always learn more, but "forever learning" can also inhibit learning's
application. At some point, "Just do it!" makes sense. Distance falls out in
the wash once Joe Pilot knows how to safely pick fields.

Bob W.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:58:48 AM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where the concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design perfection?"

I view my pronounced and long-recognized tendency to 'gold-plate' (aka 'design perfection') as a personality asset in the domain of soaring. It is only tedious for onlookers.

If I was making a product to sell, I would need to push it out the door. But as long as I'm making rapid and steady progress (log book shows decrease in tow release heights and increase in average speed), I see no drawback to my systematic and incremental approach. It's not for everyone.

If you have the personality type that is systematic and not easily bored, gold plating works well in a self-paced hobby. Sure, some people have more 'go for it' in their personality mix and we need to structure and facilitate their progress or they will get frustrated and quit.

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush. It's all fun.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:47:55 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush. It's all fun.

Well said! Keep us posted on your progress (the ups and the downs - which are usually more interesting!)

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On 7/19/2014 7:47 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:58:48 AM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where
the concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design
perfection?"

I view my pronounced and long-recognized tendency to 'gold-plate' (aka
'design perfection') as a personality asset in the domain of soaring. It
is only tedious for onlookers.

No tedium here, simply a question that popped into my skull.

If I was making a product to sell, I would need to push it out the door.
But as long as I'm making rapid and steady progress (log book shows
decrease in tow release heights and increase in average speed), I see no
drawback to my systematic and incremental approach...
Snip
Excellent - if it works for you, keep after it!

If you have the personality type that is systematic and not easily bored,
gold plating works well in a self-paced hobby. Sure, some people have more
'go for it' in their personality mix and we need to structure and
facilitate their progress or they will get frustrated and quit.

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of
learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush. It's
all fun.

Indeed!

Bob W.

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 06:47:55 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

If you have the personality type that is systematic and not easily
bored, gold plating works well in a self-paced hobby. Sure, some people
have more 'go for it' in their personality mix and we need to structure
and facilitate their progress or they will get frustrated and quit.

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of
learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush.
It's all fun.

Have you added flying mini-triangles to your repertoire yet?

By that I mean a small 3 or 4 turnpoint task with your airport at its
centre and legs or around 12-16km (8-10 miles), so the entire task counts
as local soaring and that you can easily go round more than once during a
flight. You'll find that flying round mini-triangles teaches you skills,
particularly if you use them as practise for staying high while going
faster, that you won't get from flying between randomly picked thermals.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |