Glider pilot rolls inverted and exits at 1400 feet AGL

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:40:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the stick?

On my SZD glider with trim adjustment independent of the stick, I suppose I could (in theory) set the trim position all the way forward, and then just let go of the stick, belts already off, when I was ready. Glider go down momentarily.

Even with the trim set for level flight, the glider would take a second to return to level flight after you let go of the stick and hopefully you would be clear by then.

Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:

"You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."

I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!

-John, Q3

On Monday, July 28, 2014 2:22:50 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:42 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.

No. If you have enough control to roll inverted, you can probably land the glider.

After a midair, who knows what the plane will do.

And taking the time to roll upside down (real slooowww in a glider) is a poor choice most of the time, when all you have to do is undo your straps and slam the stick forward - if you get more than 1 negative G that's the same as falling out from an upside down cockpit.

But practically, after a midair your glider will probably either be spinning (loss of most a a wing?) or diving steeply (loss of tail controls) so the trick is to get out any way you can RIGHT NOW and not go for style points.

The "roll upside down and drop out" comes from situations in planes where you still had control but had to get out - like a fire, or out of fuel over unlandable terrain. Common advice in WW2 fighter manuals.

Of course, if you are upside down as a result of a midair, I sure wouldn't try to roll rightside up before getting out!

Kirk
66

If you have the time and control:

Jettison the canopy
Release the harness
Trim full nose down
Release the stick
Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)

If you can do all of the above, why jump? Unless you're on fire or over
unlandable terrain with nothing within reach. And why would any sane
pilot be there?

If no control:

Do what you gotta do to get out.

Dan Marotta

On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:
Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.

Ramy

That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
left out of the aircraft.

Dan Marotta

On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:

"You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."

I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!

-John, Q3

On Monday, July 28, 2014 2:22:50 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:42 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.
No. If you have enough control to roll inverted, you can probably land the glider.

After a midair, who knows what the plane will do.

And taking the time to roll upside down (real slooowww in a glider) is a poor choice most of the time, when all you have to do is undo your straps and slam the stick forward - if you get more than 1 negative G that's the same as falling out from an upside down cockpit.

But practically, after a midair your glider will probably either be spinning (loss of most a a wing?) or diving steeply (loss of tail controls) so the trick is to get out any way you can RIGHT NOW and not go for style points.

The "roll upside down and drop out" comes from situations in planes where you still had control but had to get out - like a fire, or out of fuel over unlandable terrain. Common advice in WW2 fighter manuals.

Of course, if you are upside down as a result of a midair, I sure wouldn't try to roll rightside up before getting out!

Kirk
66

The advice to use negative G forces to extract yourself from the glider is valuable, but be aware that if your instrument panel is fixed, your legs may become trapped and a bailout will be much more difficult and probably very painful. You could even suffer broken legs, which will make the parachute landing really awful.

Do what you have to do, but try to avoid leaving parts of yourself in the cockpit.

Not that straightforward Dan - you can have control from
damaged tailplane and then lose it when the damaged tailplane
departs. It is a very difficult judgement - one that I hope
never to have to make.

If the glider was controllable and I was able to climb I would
stay with it as long as possible to gain as much height and time
to assess the situation and to mentally prepare to jump or land.
There might be another glider nearby whose pilot could help
with the assessment.

John Galloway

At 15:43 29 July 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:
If you have the time and control:

Jettison the canopy
Release the harness
Trim full nose down
Release the stick
Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)

If you can do all of the above, why jump? Unless you're on
fire or over
unlandable terrain with nothing within reach. And why would
any sane
pilot be there?

If no control:

Do what you gotta do to get out.

Dan Marotta

On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:
Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have
some control) is
one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably
something
to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive
during bail
out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.

Ramy

Dan, the key words were "last resort", ie, desperation time. Also, on the ground I am unable to roll out of the cockpit with a chute on my back from the normal seating position, much less while pulling myself as far forward as I can get. I think I can forget about being able to roll out while airborne under G loads, but maybe adrenaline would work wonders. I hope I never find out...

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:48:20 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
left out of the aircraft.

Dan Marotta

On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:

"You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."

I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!

-John, Q3

This is all "Last Resort" stuff!

I can see a situation where you get sucked up into a Cu-Nim without gyros and lose control - as you accelerate through Vne and flutter starts, the negative g push technique will probably work pretty well - since you will be in a hi-G spiral with little chance to just roll out of the cockpit!

With a midair, who knows? If you are lucky your glider spits you out and all you have to do is pull the ripcord... but if your tail is chopped off or you lose a wing, all bets are off.

And the "lean forward and pull the ripcord" is an absolute last chance "die with your boots on" move. Good chance you will be severely banged up in the process, and it may not work if you hangup on the tail, but it would beat the option of riding the glider in, I would think...

Fun to think about, but I would rather not put it to the test. That's one of the reasons I have a PowerFlarm (and Dan has a transponder).

Kirk

Perhaps this thread could benefit from a first person perspective. (i.e. been there)

Situation: Mid air collision - major damage to left wing - glider turning left even with full right aileron and rudder.

Assessment: Glider minimally controllable - bailout imminent.

Action 1: Jettison doors (this was a Pratt-Read) to prepare for immediate egress.

Review situation: Left turn appears to be stable at 10 - 15 degree bank. Terrain 4000 feet below is flat and reasonably clear of obstacles. Glider is actually still climbing - is this good?

Conclusion: Bailout less than urgent. If glider can be made to descend into level terrain, it should result in a mild ground loop which might be less dangerous than a bailout.

Action 2: Initiate descent with full spoilers.

Result: Open spoiler on damaged left wing did not increase drag significantly but the one on the undamaged wing did - glider rolls level but still requires 75% right aileron and rudder. Glider is now partially controllable. Is it enough for a landing attempt?

Plan: Straight in approach to airfield. Review situation again before descending to 2500' AGL. If not good, initiate bailout above 2500'.

Result: Successful landing on airport property.

Review: Examination of damage revealed that the wing structure was significantly weakened. Had this been known in flight it would have likely resulted in a decision to abandon the glider.



On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 9:43:35 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
If you have the time and control:



Jettison the canopy

Release the harness

Trim full nose down

Release the stick

Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)



If you can do all of the above, why jump?� Unless you're on fire
or over unlandable terrain with nothing within reach.� And why
would any sane pilot be there?



If no control:



Do what you gotta do to get out.



Dan Marotta
On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:



Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.

Ramy

Individual experiences may or may not be a good basis for future decisions, but 2 UK instances come to mind.

Well known pilot collided, found he had control (as did the other) and decided to bring it in to a landing rather than bale out. Tail came off at about 1000 feet, too low to bale out now, and he died.

More recently, another well known pilot had collision, glider uncontrollable, bunted, and it took all his strength and 3/4 round the outside loop before he got the canopy off and got out. Survived with relatively minor injuries. (The other landed OK.)

After the first, several people in the BGA decided that baling out was safer that hoping a damaged tail (or whatever) would keep on and permit a landing.

It seems that staying in and hoping to land is decided upon without enough information. Bill's story suggests the same.

(I don't think I could get out anyway - with infirmity, I can only just get out unaided, minus parachute, on the ground. I have Flarm and PCAS - and wish I had a BRS.)

Chris N