Another mid-air (UK)

At 16:17 05 August 2014, waremark wrote:
I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have
been seeing
the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a
competition thermal
gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.


..and another happened in a thermal with two gliders alone.

So we conclude FLARM isn't any use in a gaggle, and isn't any use
not in a gaggle.
So in the context that most mid-airs happen in thermals, when is it
useful? Or is it the Emperor's New Clothes?

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:55:00 AM UTC-7, Stats Watcher wrote:
At 16:17 05 August 2014, waremark wrote:

I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have

been seeing

the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a

competition thermal

gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.





.and another happened in a thermal with two gliders alone.



So we conclude FLARM isn't any use in a gaggle, and isn't any use

not in a gaggle.

So in the context that most mid-airs happen in thermals, when is it

useful? Or is it the Emperor's New Clothes?

I've flown with PowerFLARM for the last 3 seasons and regularly fly in close gaggles. I find it invaluable both in gaggle and cruise situations and wouldn't want to go back to the old ways. Frankly I'm mystified by the resistance to this.

Cheers,
Craig

Craig; I think I understand Flarm denial syndrome. When a glider pilot says " it's not the money its the principal of the thing, then you can be pretty sure it is the money.
I now have both a Flarm and Mode S transponder. I look outside much more now than before than I did before.

Dale Bush

At 18:42 05 August 2014, Craig Funston wrote:
I've flown with PowerFLARM for the last 3 seasons and
regularly fly in
close gaggles. I find it invaluable both in gaggle and cruise
situations
and wouldn't want to go back to the old ways. Frankly I'm
mystified by the
resistance to this.

Cheers,
Craig



A strange reply, you appear to prove the point... Firstly, by
flying in 'close gaggles' you are choosing to raise your personal
risk of collision. (As an aside, I don't understand why as the
gaggle always moves slower than you can achieve by doing
your own thing so why increase your risk for no gain?).
However you must feel you are then lowering this risk by
carrying FLARM, classic piece of risk compensation! which we
hinted at earlier... Unless carrying FLARM can reduced you risk
back to the original level, even by carrying FLARM you are
actually flying a higher risk approach. However.... even the
manufacturer says FLARM is not a close quarters collision
avoidance system, simply a mid range situational awareness
tool, so your risk mitigation strategy appears to be fallacy.

So you prove the point. You are flying a high risk approach,
which your erroneously believe is mitigated. However it is not,
so overall your personal risk, by carrying FLARM, is higher that a
pilot who does not....

Craig: I think I know the cause of "Flarm resistance syndrome". When a glider pilot says "It's not the money it's the principal of the thing" then you can be pretty sure that it's the money.
I now fly with both Flarm and Mode S. I look outside for traffic lots more than I did before. Of course that's just me.

Dale Bush

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:16:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Craig: I think I know the cause of "Flarm resistance syndrome". When a glider pilot says "It's not the money it's the principal of the thing" then you can be pretty sure that it's the money.

I now fly with both Flarm and Mode S. I look outside for traffic lots more than I did before. Of course that's just me.



Dale Bush

I think there is a natural resistance on the part of many folks to things they think are being over sold. The drift of this thread is an example. Every mid air is an excuse to bang the drum again.
Flarm was over sold and under delivered and many have not forgotten that.
As delivered, it had a useless unreadable display and a beep that told you to look inside at a hard to read display just when you needed to be looking outside.
For me it became a useful device when ClearNav introduced a simple display integrated with an audible message such as "traffic twelve o'clock high".
There is a perceptible trend on the part of some pilots to depend on this device and I think that is a hazard.
It also is heavily flawed in application because, except in a very few rare cases, installations don't have the second antenna needed to provide the coverage where it is really needed which is below and behind where we can't see.
So I think it is not just about the money.
UH

I agree with the oversold and under performed part.

Earlier someone said, "Any pilot with half a brain will have Flarm".
Well, I have a whole brain and my analysis says, "Not yet".

Dan Marotta

On 8/5/2014 2:09 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:16:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Craig: I think I know the cause of "Flarm resistance syndrome". When a glider pilot says "It's not the money it's the principal of the thing" then you can be pretty sure that it's the money.

I now fly with both Flarm and Mode S. I look outside for traffic lots more than I did before. Of course that's just me.



Dale Bush
I think there is a natural resistance on the part of many folks to things they think are being over sold. The drift of this thread is an example. Every mid air is an excuse to bang the drum again.
Flarm was over sold and under delivered and many have not forgotten that.
As delivered, it had a useless unreadable display and a beep that told you to look inside at a hard to read display just when you needed to be looking outside.
For me it became a useful device when ClearNav introduced a simple display integrated with an audible message such as "traffic twelve o'clock high".
There is a perceptible trend on the part of some pilots to depend on this device and I think that is a hazard.
It also is heavily flawed in application because, except in a very few rare cases, installations don't have the second antenna needed to provide the coverage where it is really needed which is below and behind where we can't see.
So I think it is not just about the money.
UH

Ah, there are plenty of unfinished products in soaring. Many have bought new gliders that were not up to the performance of the one they just sold for significantly less.
UH and others do well finishing up gliders that left the factory allegedly performing like the advertised polar.
How about this series of photos? Amazing what a telephoto lens will do.
http://www.mkweb.co.uk/News/GALLERY-...0805200000.htm
Jim

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:55:00 AM UTC-7, Stats Watcher wrote:
At 16:17 05 August 2014, waremark wrote:

I believe the most recent UK mid-air, the one of which we have

been seeing

the dramatic photos of the wing parting, happened in a

competition thermal

gaggle. I find Flarm of little relevance in that situation.





.and another happened in a thermal with two gliders alone.



So we conclude FLARM isn't any use in a gaggle, and isn't any use

not in a gaggle.

So in the context that most mid-airs happen in thermals, when is it

useful? Or is it the Emperor's New Clothes?

Like all flight instruments, it adds data to your decision making. And like all flight instruments, to the extent you believe in it, it reduces the burden of keeping watch on that function. The only reason you have any instrument at all is to add data, or to present already available data in a way requiring less thought (pilot workload). So Flarm, like any instrument, tempts one to pay less attention to watch keeping (and more to something else) to the extent that you allow. At the same time, it adds a great deal of situational awareness, i.e., what to watch for. I think most pilots flying with it begin to depend on it in this way, consciously or not. If the implementation allows voice warnings (such as the Butterfly Vario) then there is no additional attention *required* at all.

I disagree that it is not useful in tight gaggles. With a good presentation (the best is probably on the old Winpilot software) your situational awareness is greatly improved, and the voice warnings I get from the Vario are almost always relevant. I can't imagine anyone closing their eyes in a gaggle and waiting for Flarm to tell them what to do. But when flying in the clear there is a temptation to pay less attention to empty space until a target is picked up by Flarm, then pay a lot more attention to trying to get eyes on them. Whether that is a net plus I don't know.

However, Flarm is worth the cost for its entertainment value alone.