World Championship gliders

Originally Posted by Sean Fidler

True but your one design glider would be competitive for many years. Currently your looking at 5-10 years before it becomes obsolete.

That may well prove to be the case but the Ventus 2 first won a worlds in 1995 (15m) and still figures prominently even today. There have been incremental improvements for sure but it's fundamentally the same glider.

Colin

I stand corrected. 10-20 years. Impressive that the V2 has been competitive for so long. Regardless of specific competitive lifespan of each design, at current its only a matter of time before each design gets leapfrogged (and made obsolete in 15/18 or even standard). If the strength of the economy or popularity of the sport improves (often linked) under the current model, the pace of new designs leapfrogging eachother would increase significantly.

Do we really need a new 15 meter glider with 1-2% more performance (Duckhawk goal)? Do we really need a new 18 meter glider with 1-2% more performance which makes everything else on the market basically obsolete (Ventus 3)? Perhaps the leap in performance could be even more than 2%?

I am happy buying a new 29 or V2, ESPECIALLY IF I knew that it was going to be competitive for a long period in the future. But right now, buying a new 29 or V2 is unwise until we know what the Ventus 3 is capable of doing.... I actually wanted to buy a new glider at the beginning of this season and passed.

This current marketplace and international organization mindset in the sport of soaring is very interesting...

The only fact is that the sport is slowly shrinking, new glider sales are slowing and new glider prices are rapidly increasing. Hmmm, where have I seen this before?

Sean



On Thursday, August 7, 2014 4:02:07 AM UTC-4, Ventus_a wrote:
Sean Fidler;887505 Wrote:

True but your one design glider would be competitive for many years.

Currently your looking at 5-10 years before it becomes obsolete.



That may well prove to be the case but the Ventus 2 first won a worlds

in 1995 (15m) and still figures prominently even today. There have been

incremental improvements for sure but it's fundamentally the same

glider.



Colin









--

Ventus_a

Sean said: 'new glider sales are slowing'.

Is that true? Schleicher and S-H seem to be operating at capacity (I was quoted 3 years delivery on an Arcus, so bought a pre-owned one) and they are bringing out new models thick and fast. And as mentioned in the Shark thread, there is an unusually wide range of choice of high performance rivals from other manufacturers - Lak, Shark, JS1, Binder, Antares, and DG come to mind. Most of them seem to have full order books. Then there are the new generation of lighter gliders such as Silent, Pipistrel and Phoenix.

These gliders are not only being bought because the buyers all expect to win world championships with them.

If you want to fly a lower performance cheaper class, what is wrong with the Club class?

Club class is very good, but it is based on handicap racing and (mainly) very old glider designs. The handicap range is fairly wide. Also, certain gliders become more competitive/less competitive based on the conditions. I know of several pilots that had "weak weather gliders" and "strong weather gliders." I find this annoying.

I agree there is little chance of a one design glider class coming to fruition. The current manufacturer driven climate in the sport is fairly locked in for now. They are good people and design and build great products. But I stand behind the idea that a one design concept could improve their business model and the enjoyment of racing pilots in the future. I believe a one design class could strengthen the sport of soaring.

Perhaps organizing a one design class from an existing glider which has been built in large numbers (ASW-20 for example) could be successful. The only problem is that Schleicher is not going to build new ASW20's. I would have more fun flying against 30 almost identical gliders then flying in a handicap class (or maybe even the "rule" class of 15 or 18 meter). Imagine the ASW20 Nationals. Or the ASW20 Worlds? For your SH folks, the D2 Nationals or Worlds.

Oh well, one can dream. Its pretty clear that few here are receptive to the idea of a mid-high performance one design glider at this time. At least I have plenty of One Design sailing to enjoy.

Sean

Single design class - LS4 would be best choice. Most produced composite
single seat glider -over 1000. Simple to fly - large cockpit - many
European clubs use as first solo machine. Solid 40:1 performance. Cost just
a little bit more than a new PW5. When PW5 came out - many said the LS4
would have made a much better choice - yet IGC continued with their
misguided aproach, much as they have done with 13.5 m class.

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

On Friday, August 8, 2014 10:20:46 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class.. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.



Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.



John Cochrane

Thank you for injecting some rationality!

At the Regional level, I would add LS6s, V1s, and even tricked out ASW-20s - all are so close that the stick actuator makes the real difference!

Why would I give up my LS6 for an LS4? Nice plane (I've partnered in one) but I like going faster!

As usual, Sean is babbling about his alternate reality without, apparently, understanding how the real world works...

Kirk
66

On 08/08/2014 11:20 AM, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

Couldn't agree more.

Luke

Originally Posted by John Cochrane[_3_]

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

A bit of sense, must agree

At 15:20 08 August 2014, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter
class.
=
V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable,
less=
than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is
far=
greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as
t=
hey get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to
be=
competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting
around=

Try less rich North American thinking
1 x V2/ASW27= 1.5 - 2 x LS4
V2a/b + W27 production LS4production
LS 4 Better club ship? More accessible to wider range of pilots. One design
means one design.


Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot
more=
important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.=20

of course having both helps - Kawa, D2a and SZD56-2

Its not atrocious weather - its 'European' weather - learn to fly in it..

John Cochrane