World Championship gliders

Single design class - LS4 would be best choice. Most produced composite
single seat glider -over 1000. Simple to fly - large cockpit - many
European clubs use as first solo machine. Solid 40:1 performance. Cost just
a little bit more than a new PW5. When PW5 came out - many said the LS4
would have made a much better choice - yet IGC continued with their
misguided aproach, much as they have done with 13.5 m class.

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

On Friday, August 8, 2014 10:20:46 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class.. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.



Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.



John Cochrane

Thank you for injecting some rationality!

At the Regional level, I would add LS6s, V1s, and even tricked out ASW-20s - all are so close that the stick actuator makes the real difference!

Why would I give up my LS6 for an LS4? Nice plane (I've partnered in one) but I like going faster!

As usual, Sean is babbling about his alternate reality without, apparently, understanding how the real world works...

Kirk
66

On 08/08/2014 11:20 AM, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around.

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

Couldn't agree more.

Luke

Why not try a "soaring regatta"? Gliders types that commit with say more than five entries get their own class and are scored as a one design. If fewer than the specific number of like sailplanes want to participate, they could be scored in one or two handicap divisions based on performance to round out the field.

There are plenty of less than state of the art racing machines that may have owners who would like to meet, compete, and compare notes on their particular model sailplane. Assigned task could be preferred and set according to performance of the sailplane/pilots in each class. Many of the more popular model types have newsgroups so this could be discussed among themselves to see if there is enough interest. I'm sure after an initial contest or two it would become apparent what the more popular designs will be. Maybe a poll could be taken to find out if there is enough interest in this concept before a contest organizer sticks their neck out too far.

Seems I remember a gathering a few years back of Libelle's at Air Sailing that was quite popular and successful.

Barry

Great idea!

On Friday, August 8, 2014 2:59:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Why not try a "soaring regatta"? Gliders types that commit with say more than five entries get their own class and are scored as a one design. If fewer than the specific number of like sailplanes want to participate, they could be scored in one or two handicap divisions based on performance to round out the field.



There are plenty of less than state of the art racing machines that may have owners who would like to meet, compete, and compare notes on their particular model sailplane. Assigned task could be preferred and set according to performance of the sailplane/pilots in each class. Many of the more popular model types have newsgroups so this could be discussed among themselves to see if there is enough interest. I'm sure after an initial contest or two it would become apparent what the more popular designs will be. Maybe a poll could be taken to find out if there is enough interest in this concept before a contest organizer sticks their neck out too far.



Seems I remember a gathering a few years back of Libelle's at Air Sailing that was quite popular and successful.



Barry

The only successful one design competition in the world for sailplanes that I know of is the Schweizer 1-26 Championships. I will say that it is a lot of fun setting out on task with a group all in the exact same glider. Differences in pilots get sorted out very quickly.

The one design concept for 1-26's came about due to a lot of effort in the early days by Schweizer to establish the Championships as well as supporting the early 1-26 Association. I think any future successful one design contest will also require major manufacturer support or a strong type club to get the ball rolling.

On Monday, August 11, 2014 1:33:07 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
The only successful one design competition in the world for sailplanes that I know of is the Schweizer 1-26 Championships.


Sorry, but I will have to disagree a bit on the 1-26 as a "One Design" class. Same external shape of the wing and horizontal, same general layout on fuselage, differeing vertical based on model and the real big change: 1-26 and 1-26A gross weight 575 lbs. 1-26B and 1-26C gross weight 600 lbs. 1-26 D and E gross weight 700 lbs. With empty weights changing almost to match.

But, the guys flying them are willing to accept the differences, and still call it a "one design contest."

Now, back to the original discussion. Small fuselages and skinny pilots have an unfair advantage. Talk to an aerodynamicist. Wing span is measured from tip to tip. You don't have "longer wings" by having a "skinnier fuselage". Wing Area INCLUDES the planform "in" the fuselage, so a skinnier fuselage does NOT change area or aspect ratio. Any performance change is due to reduced total wetted area (less on fuselage, slightly more exposed wing skin). And the benefit is likely to be larger the faster you fly. But, as others have said, the difference between planes of the same type is likely as big or bigger than what is seen between a small fuselage and the "average" fuselage of otherwise the same type.

Just my opinion.

Steve

Originally Posted by John Cochrane[_3_]

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter class. V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable, less than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is far greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as they get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to be competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting around..

Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot more important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.

John Cochrane

A bit of sense, must agree

At 15:20 08 August 2014, John Cochrane wrote:

We have excellent one-design racing right now. It's called 15 meter
class.
=
V2 or ASW27, take your pick. Performance basically indistinguishable,
less=
than 5 points per day, and the variation across gliders of one make is
far=
greater than the variation across designs. That's especially true now as
t=
hey get older and need some TLC. No new production, so they are going to
be=
competitive for decades. And there is a huge supply of them sitting
around=

Try less rich North American thinking
1 x V2/ASW27= 1.5 - 2 x LS4
V2a/b + W27 production LS4production
LS 4 Better club ship? More accessible to wider range of pilots. One design
means one design.


Looking at the worlds, ability to fly in atrocious weather seems a lot
more=
important than a centimeter or so of cockpit width and a point of LD.=20

of course having both helps - Kawa, D2a and SZD56-2

Its not atrocious weather - its 'European' weather - learn to fly in it..

John Cochrane