A proposal to increase membership, cross-country pilots, competitors,and world champions (USA).

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 6:28:06 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:

Bill, with respect, you can't change physics. Our club has a fantastic grass field - but is only 2400' long, with roads and an interstate at each end. So you tell us how a winch will work - because we would love to have one!


And yes I have winch launched - in Germany, France, and the US. And what all those operations had in common was a LONG runway (over 4000').


So we will stick to our trusty Pawnee and Super Cub for now.



Kirk

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Yes, winch operations work better with longer runways and 2500 feet is too short. Some might say 2500 feet is too short for safe aero tow operations particularly with heavy gliders. Don't limit your thinking to the existing airfield. Imagine how to get a larger one. Think outside the box. People ARE doing that.

On average, that "trusty Pawnee" will deliver about 30,000 tows before it gets totaled in a crash according to 20 years of NTSB data and activity surveys. There's only about 100 left and we're crashing 4 - 5 a year. Those surveys also say it's likely to kill a tow pilot every 125,000 tows. Only one in of five of those wrecks will get rebuilt to tow again. We're running out of 50 year old Pawnees.

Most clubs see their tow planes sucking up around 65% of their revenue leaving little money to upgrade their glider fleets. Sure, they could raise fees but that will cost them members. When the tug costs reach 75% of revenue, clubs tend to start a downward spiral as gliders get older and members leave.

Winch launch is inevitable.

On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:02:00 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

Yes, winch operations work better with longer runways and 2500 feet is too short. Some might say 2500 feet is too short for safe aero tow operations particularly with heavy gliders. Don't limit your thinking to the existing airfield. Imagine how to get a larger one. Think outside the box. People ARE doing that.

Disagree that our 2400' (with nice overruns) is too short for aero tows. Of course, we are at 500' msl, which helps. Hot day, no wind, full up G-103 can make it sporting for the 180 Super Cub, but our 235 Pawnee doesn't mind at all.


On average, that "trusty Pawnee" will deliver about 30,000 tows before it gets totaled in a crash according to 20 years of NTSB data and activity surveys. There's only about 100 left and we're crashing 4 - 5 a year. Those surveys also say it's likely to kill a tow pilot every 125,000 tows. Only one in of five of those wrecks will get rebuilt to tow again. We're running out of 50 year old Pawnees.

Well, ours has been going for over 30 years since a complete rebuild (from a basket case). We have parts for a couple more, and are looking at some interesting options out of Argentina - don't give up on the Pawnee yet!

Also, you can now get an essentially zero time Cessna Bird Dog. Not cheap, but probably one of the best towplanes ever made, and no fabric to worry about.

Most clubs see their tow planes sucking up around 65% of their revenue leaving little money to upgrade their glider fleets. Sure, they could raise fees but that will cost them members. When the tug costs reach 75% of revenue, clubs tend to start a downward spiral as gliders get older and members leave.

We are lucky to own our field, towplanes, and an expanding fleet (everything from a 2-33 and 1-26s, to K-21 and Astir CS for XC), all hangared (with a separate new hangar for 10 private gliders). We are seeing a lot of new members this year, including several teens - to the point that our limitation now is CFIGs!

Winch launch is inevitable.

No, death and taxes are inevitable. Winch launching is an attractive option. Now if we all had sustainers, a short winch launch followed by a sustainer climb would have potential. But this isn't Europe yet.

Kirk
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