Where is the LX S80?

Excellent questions and observations.
I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.

On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:
Excellent questions and observations.

I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.

You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.

Now that was a very sensitive, insightful, and constructive comment for this thread. Thank you.

On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:

Excellent questions and observations.



I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.



You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts.. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.

Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

Thank you for such a clear explanation for why vario manufacturers are working so hard on these issues. It also makes me feel better about getting fooled by "my backside" and my vario when flying cross-country.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:



Excellent questions and observations.







I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.







You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.



Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.
This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.
UH

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:



On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:







Excellent questions and observations.















I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.















You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.







Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.



I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.

This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.

UH

Do not agree with what?

The aerodynamics is accepted by pretty much everyone. The seat of the pants feel is simply vertical acceleration (and sometimes a little lateral mixed in). This could be displayed on a very inexpensive accelerometer. If what you say is true, then you don't need a variometer at all. I hope the vario manufacturers are trying to do more (and they are). Specifically, concisely present information allowing maximum extraction of energy from the surrounding air. There are many reasons why a barometric variometer does not (and cannot) duplicate the accelerations you feel.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:21:38 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:



On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:







On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:















Excellent questions and observations.































I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.































You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.















Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.







I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:31:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:21:38 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:



On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:







On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:















On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:































Excellent questions and observations.































































I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.































































You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.































Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.















I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.







This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.







UH







Do not agree with what?







The aerodynamics is accepted by pretty much everyone. The seat of the pants feel is simply vertical acceleration (and sometimes a little lateral mixed in). This could be displayed on a very inexpensive accelerometer. If what you say is true, then you don't need a variometer at all. I hope the vario manufacturers are trying to do more (and they are). Specifically, concisely present information allowing maximum extraction of energy from the surrounding air. There are many reasons why a barometric variometer does not (and cannot) duplicate the accelerations you feel.



Hmmm...



There seems to be some confusion here.



Humans can, with varying precision, detect linear and angular acceleration and at least the first derivative thereof (the physics term is "jerk"). Humans are relatively poor at judging vertical position (altitude) and velocity (climb rate) with enough precision to be useful in soaring most of the time.



The flight dynamics that result from changes in vertical versus horizontal air movement, while somewhat similar, are not identical. Experienced pilots generally can pick up the difference much of the time, but I think it is quite possible to use a combination of air data and acceleration information to compensate a vario so that its transient response to horizontal gusts reinforces, rather than conflicts with, the seat of the pants sensation and judgement of experienced pilots. I think this would be of benefit to all experience levels, but obviously of greater benefit to pilots who aren't practiced in the art of sorting the difference.



9B

9B said what I was trying to communicate better than I did.
UH

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:03:48 AM UTC+11, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:

Excellent questions and observations.



I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.



You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.

Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

A horizontal gust does NOT produce acceleration. That's why you can't feel it. If you cannot sense vertical acceleration it's not there, despite what your instruments are telling you.
To put it another way: if your vario is telling you that you are accelerating upwards at 5 knots (500 fpm or over 8 feet per second) and you cannot feel it, then you can ignore it as a gust. Why look for a complex technological solution to something so simple?
A vertical gust is a different matter. I presume by vertical gust you are referring to a vertical movement of air. What distinguishes a vertical gust from lift?