Where is the LX S80?

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:



On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:







What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.















There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).















It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.







I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.



Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.

Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.

Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.

This image makes my point to perfection:

http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png

No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:



On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:







On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:















What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.































There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).































It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.















I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.







Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.



Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.



Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.



This image makes my point to perfection:



http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png



No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...

Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.

In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.

There is no doubt that this can be poorly done, as your S80 example illustrates. I have no idea what that display is supposed to tell me. But one bad example does not condemn the method.

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 21:31:48 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:



On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:







On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:















On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:































What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































































































































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.































































There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).































































It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.































I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays.. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.















Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.







Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.







Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.







This image makes my point to perfection:







http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png







No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...



Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.



In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.


In commercial airliners the trends is to display only information that is essential and should be displayed. If you look at the screens of modern airbus etc. (screen area is probably hundredfold compared to BF Vario BTW), they are not that confusing at all.

Off topic but, if the screens in the Airbus display only necessary data,
then why wasn't the simple message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed
to that crew over the Atlantic?

Dan Marotta

On 10/21/2014 1:57 PM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 21:31:48 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?
The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.
There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).
It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.
I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.
Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.
Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.
Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.
This image makes my point to perfection:
http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png
No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...


Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.



In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.

In commercial airliners the trends is to display only information that is essential and should be displayed. If you look at the screens of modern airbus etc. (screen area is probably hundredfold compared to BF Vario BTW), they are not that confusing at all.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:23:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Off topic but, if the screens in the
Airbus display only necessary data, then why wasn't the simple
message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed to that crew over the
Atlantic?



That wasn't considered necessary information for trained pilots.....

I would argue that they weren't "trained pilots". They were systems
managers and, when the systems performed as programmed, rather than in a
manner which the pilots expected, the pilots didn't have the wherewithal
to fly the aircraft out of a simple stall.

Dan Marotta

On 10/22/2014 12:01 AM, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:23:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Off topic but, if the screens in the
Airbus display only necessary data, then why wasn't the simple
message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed to that crew over the
Atlantic?


That wasn't considered necessary information for trained pilots.....

Sorry for on-topic intervention, but is the variometer technology (hardware) identical in V7, V9 and S80? Or in other words, is there any evidence to think it is not identical?

At 23:23 21 October 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:
Off topic but, if the screens in the Airbus display only necessary data,
then why wasn't the simple message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed
to that crew over the Atlantic?

Dan Marotta

Airbus know better, and consider that their airplane's computers are better
at flying than the pilots. The pilots are there simply to satisfy the
regulators and the public. From this position why would you need to tell
the pilot anything at all?