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On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:41:57 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario? Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises? In a little over 2,000 launches, I've had 2 actual towplane failures. In both cases, the failure was gradual, with no obvious puff of smoke or stopped prop. The problem signs were a gradual decrease in climb rate until we were barely climbing at all. The obvious difference between just flying through heavy sink (which is not uncommon at a mountain or ridge site) is the change in attitude of the towplane and the obvious need to pitch down to stay behind the now struggling towplane. The most memorable of these was behind an L-19 that was slowly gobbling up a valve during a tow on a bodacious ridge day. My good friend was towing, and he nursed us around the airfield in a close in pattern climbing at barely 100fpm, allowing a safe landing at any point. When he got me to 1,000 feet AGL, he waved me off and brought the sick L-19 in. FWIW... we practiced exactly this scenario in our instruction program at my old club. We would brief the mission with the towpilot, who would slowly back off the power starting at around 600 feet. I did this with at least a half-dozen students, and with most of them it would go something like this: Student:"Hey, what's the towpilot doing"? Me: "What do you mean"? Student: "We've stopped climbing" Me: "So, what are we going to do about it?" Student: "But he didn't wave me off..." It was pretty eye-opening to think that students might follow the towplane down if the towpilot was too busy to wave him/her off. The post-flight debriefs were usually quite enlightening. P3 |
#2
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I've never had a tug fail while in my glider but I've had two engine
failures with gliders behind me and one after the glider released. My position on my own engine failure is this: If I have the time, I'll get you to a safe position and wave you off. Failing that, and I have the time, I'll wave you off. Failing that, I'll pull the release and find a safe landing spot for the tug; you're on your own. I'm more concerned about the glider who gets way out of position. I towed for over 25 years before dumping a glider. Hope I don't have to do it again. Dan Marotta On 10/23/2014 8:22 PM, Papa3 wrote: On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:41:57 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote: It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario? Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises? In a little over 2,000 launches, I've had 2 actual towplane failures. In both cases, the failure was gradual, with no obvious puff of smoke or stopped prop. The problem signs were a gradual decrease in climb rate until we were barely climbing at all. The obvious difference between just flying through heavy sink (which is not uncommon at a mountain or ridge site) is the change in attitude of the towplane and the obvious need to pitch down to stay behind the now struggling towplane. The most memorable of these was behind an L-19 that was slowly gobbling up a valve during a tow on a bodacious ridge day. My good friend was towing, and he nursed us around the airfield in a close in pattern climbing at barely 100fpm, allowing a safe landing at any point. When he got me to 1,000 feet AGL, he waved me off and brought the sick L-19 in. FWIW... we practiced exactly this scenario in our instruction program at my old club. We would brief the mission with the towpilot, who would slowly back off the power starting at around 600 feet. I did this with at least a half-dozen students, and with most of them it would go something like this: Student:"Hey, what's the towpilot doing"? Me: "What do you mean"? Student: "We've stopped climbing" Me: "So, what are we going to do about it?" Student: "But he didn't wave me off..." It was pretty eye-opening to think that students might follow the towplane down if the towpilot was too busy to wave him/her off. The post-flight debriefs were usually quite enlightening. P3 |
#3
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Dan, I understand. I'd just note that (1) you know two glider pilots who've experienced engine failure, and (2) these were airborne situations. I was talking about ground run engine failure, which I saw happen twice (but not as a glider pilot). I also have seen a near ground (15 foot altitude) rope failure. So I know I should be prepared to handle them.
Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such. Getting out of position on a tow is a cardinal sin for a glider pilot. I know of two people (not me) who did it over the last 10 years. Repercussions were swift and severe, as they should be. Sometimes, though, it's very difficult to stay in position - I've towed out of Minden and Blairstown through rotor on wave and ridge days when this was the case. In those flights I've been ready on the release, and I'd bet the tow pilot was ready on his release, too. -John, Q3 On Friday, October 24, 2014 12:11:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: I've never had a tug fail while in my glider but I've had two engine failures with gliders behind me and one after the glider released. My position on my own engine failure is this:* If I have the time, I'll get you to a safe position and wave you off.* Failing that, and I have the time, I'll wave you off.* Failing that, I'll pull the release and find a safe landing spot for the tug; you're on your own. I'm more concerned about the glider who gets way out of position. I towed for over 25 years before dumping a glider.* Hope I don't have to do it again. |
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Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such.
I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it ****ed him off when I tried to steer him. Boggs |
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On Friday, October 24, 2014 12:43:25 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such. I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it ****ed him off when I tried to steer him. Boggs Hmmmm - maybe you should pass the word around your airport so that particular tow pilot never flies again! At the least acquaint him with the mnemonic IMSAFE so he can run a check on himself. For non-US pilots it stands for Illness, Medication, Stress, Alcohol, Fatigue, and Emotion (on occasionally Eating, especially lack thereof). -John, Q3 |
#6
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Hmmmm - maybe you should pass the word around your airport
From what I understand, ours is not the only airport around here where he is no longer welcome to fly either tug, or his ASW-28... Boggs |
#7
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On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:
Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such. I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it ****ed him off when I tried to steer him. Boggs Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including rudder) then you're going to wear the rope. If you want him to turn, use the radio. |
#8
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We regularly review steering turns in the glider training program and talk it over with the tow pilots. We rarely use it in flight. Normally the glider pilots figure the tow knows where the lift is, or a destination for top of tow was coordinated before flight.
Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field. The Stearman had popped the top off a jug and returned back to the field at minimum power. I've had stuck valve vibrations in the Pawnee and held on to 300ft AGL and calmly directed the student solo pilot to "Release, release, release" and he did and returned to the field as did I. Training and regular reviews. BillT |
#9
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When I used to do a lot of "scenic glider rides" many times the passenger would request to "fly over their house"..but the request was made once airborne...
Steering turns worked great for this! Cookie On Friday, October 24, 2014 11:31:25 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote: We regularly review steering turns in the glider training program and talk it over with the tow pilots. We rarely use it in flight. Normally the glider pilots figure the tow knows where the lift is, or a destination for top of tow was coordinated before flight. Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field. The Stearman had popped the top off a jug and returned back to the field at minimum power. I've had stuck valve vibrations in the Pawnee and held on to 300ft AGL and calmly directed the student solo pilot to "Release, release, release" and he did and returned to the field as did I. Training and regular reviews. BillT |
#10
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On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:31:25 PM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field. Unless there are special circumstances (such as an aero retrieve), I would consider it bad practice to tow a glider out of gliding range of the departing airfield. And considering that most towplanes climb faster than gliders sink, unless you take the glider directly downwind or to the lee of a ridge, it isn't that hard. Wave conditions, of course, may introduce variables (rotor, etc)... Or the glider pilot may be somewhat lacking in skill... Kirk |
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