OLC CAMP AT MORIARTY, NM, JUNE 1 TO JUNE 15, 2014

Great to see other places taking notes from Nephi. I think OLC camps are a fantastic idea and I can't imagine better place than Moriarty and Nephi (Minden should consider this as well).
I hope flam will be encouraged and that all participants will fly with PowerFlarms assuming large number. Personally I would only consider this if all gliders are flarm equipped. After sharing the sky with 65 flarm equipped gliders at Nephi last year I would not do this without It.

Ramy

On Saturday, November 8, 2014 3:31:06 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Great to see other places taking notes from Nephi. I think OLC camps are a fantastic idea and I can't imagine better place than Moriarty and Nephi (Minden should consider this as well).
I hope flam will be encouraged and that all participants will fly with PowerFlarms assuming large number. Personally I would only consider this if all gliders are flarm equipped. After sharing the sky with 65 flarm equipped gliders at Nephi last year I would not do this without It.

Ramy

Ramy-

Flarm is great but I wouldn't let some ships sans-Flarm keep you away. Additionally, Xponders might be even more useful at 0e0.

Best Regards,

Gary Osoba

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 11:33:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 8, 2014 3:31:06 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Great to see other places taking notes from Nephi. I think OLC camps are a fantastic idea and I can't imagine better place than Moriarty and Nephi (Minden should consider this as well).
I hope flam will be encouraged and that all participants will fly with PowerFlarms assuming large number. Personally I would only consider this if all gliders are flarm equipped. After sharing the sky with 65 flarm equipped gliders at Nephi last year I would not do this without It.

Ramy

Ramy-

Flarm is great but I wouldn't let some ships sans-Flarm keep you away. Additionally, Xponders might be even more useful at 0e0.

Best Regards,

Gary Osoba

Transponder is most useful IF you plan to spend a lot of time hanging around near the ABQ approach/departure corridors AND if less than around 10 gliders attend. If you have more than 10 gliders, Flarm is the better bet. If you have several dozen gliders participating pilots should consider Flarm essential - especially if there are cu. Cu are magnets for glider traffic and at 17,999' the TAS at cruise makes fast converging collision threats nearly impossible to pick up in time. Ask pilots who've flown the Nephi event. They learned a lot about what happens in real-world conditions at XC events with lots of gliders.

You can always equip with both of course.

9B

I would like to clarify that, at Moriarty, there is much less tendency
for all the gliders to follow the same routes since we don't have a
stunningly good ridge as at Nephi.

We have great soaring in all directions so the concentrations of gliders
are not as great. At Moriarty you can go south to Alamogordo or El
Paso, southeast to Roswell or Hobbs, east to Amarillo and beyond,
northeast to Dalhart, north-north east up the east side of the Rockies,
north up the middle of the Rockies. A bit west of north and you can go
up the west side of the Sangre de Christos and continue to Leadville.
Northwest will take you over the Jemez mountains to Abiquiu and on to
Chama, Pagosa Springs and further. You can head out west to the Mt.
Taylor volcano north of Grants and on to Gallup or southwest past
Socorro and down into the Gila mountains.

There are too many directions to name and they can be flown straight out
or out and return. If there conflicts between gliders it will be
because too many people want to fly as a group rather than exploring
what's available here.

Dan Marotta

On 11/9/2014 2:17 PM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 11:33:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 8, 2014 3:31:06 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Great to see other places taking notes from Nephi. I think OLC camps are a fantastic idea and I can't imagine better place than Moriarty and Nephi (Minden should consider this as well).
I hope flam will be encouraged and that all participants will fly with PowerFlarms assuming large number. Personally I would only consider this if all gliders are flarm equipped. After sharing the sky with 65 flarm equipped gliders at Nephi last year I would not do this without It.

Ramy
Ramy-

Flarm is great but I wouldn't let some ships sans-Flarm keep you away. Additionally, Xponders might be even more useful at 0e0.

Best Regards,

Gary Osoba
Transponder is most useful IF you plan to spend a lot of time hanging around near the ABQ approach/departure corridors AND if less than around 10 gliders attend. If you have more than 10 gliders, Flarm is the better bet. If you have several dozen gliders participating pilots should consider Flarm essential - especially if there are cu. Cu are magnets for glider traffic and at 17,999' the TAS at cruise makes fast converging collision threats nearly impossible to pick up in time. Ask pilots who've flown the Nephi event. They learned a lot about what happens in real-world conditions at XC events with lots of gliders.

You can always equip with both of course.

9B

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 3:30:43 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
I would like to clarify that, at
Moriarty, there is much less tendency for all the gliders to
follow the same routes since we don't have a stunningly good ridge
as at Nephi.

The Nephi (Mt Nebo) ridge is 17 miles long and doesn't affect XC flight selection. Pilots typically fly away from the SLC metro area to the north. I don't know if flying directly over Albuquerque is more popular than flying over the metro area around Salt lake City - the flight traces I've looked at indicate not so much. On most days most soaring sites have a directions that are preferred for a variety of reasons. Once you get more than a handful of gliders it becomes much more a function of lift indicators and the raw number of people flying. Because - math. Because - human behavior.

Dan has a point - if, like him, you are more interested if seeking the path less travelled (e.g. weaker conditions that are less attractive to the majority of pilots) on some days you can get away from the crowd by flying away from cu, away from cloud streets and away from convergence lines. But most pilots don't fly the way Dan does. If you are looking to make the most distance by flying where the conditions are strongest, intend to fly with buddies or with fly with an XC mentor - get a Flarm because you will have company. If you fly where other pilots are without a Flarm expect some disapproval. If you persist and something happens, it is possible that you or your estate may be vulnerable to legal action for negligence.

9B

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 7:02:56 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
If you fly where other pilots are without a Flarm expect some disapproval.. If
you persist and something happens, it is possible that you or your estate may
be vulnerable to legal action for negligence.

9B
Andy,
Don't get me wrong. I fly with FLARM. But could you please show me where anything is said about the Moriarty OLC Campp being FLARM Manditory? Your legal threat is the sort of thing that will put people off from attending such events. Encourage people to participate, don't threaten them. If someone says they aren't going to fly with FLARM, the organizer can deal with how to handle the person. Far as I know, you are not the organizer, so please, back down on your threats of legal action because you feel that flight without FLARM is dangerous. I have flown Moriarty. I have gone the same directions as the big guys, and never seen them. Played the traces back from OLC uploads, and I didn't miss seeing them, we never got within FLARM range of each other.

Let the Moriarty Group speak for their requirements for attendance. If you don't like it, tell them. If they won't change, don't go at that time. Pick another time to go fly this amazing site when it won't be so crowded.

Steve Leonard
VJS

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 8:51:55 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 7:02:56 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
If you fly where other pilots are without a Flarm expect some disapproval. If
you persist and something happens, it is possible that you or your estate may
be vulnerable to legal action for negligence.

9B
Andy,
Don't get me wrong. I fly with FLARM. But could you please show me where anything is said about the Moriarty OLC Campp being FLARM Manditory? Your legal threat is the sort of thing that will put people off from attending such events. Encourage people to participate, don't threaten them. If someone says they aren't going to fly with FLARM, the organizer can deal with how to handle the person. Far as I know, you are not the organizer, so please, back down on your threats of legal action because you feel that flight without FLARM is dangerous. I have flown Moriarty. I have gone the same directions as the big guys, and never seen them. Played the traces back from OLC uploads, and I didn't miss seeing them, we never got within FLARM range of each other.

Let the Moriarty Group speak for their requirements for attendance. If you don't like it, tell them. If they won't change, don't go at that time. Pick another time to go fly this amazing site when it won't be so crowded.

Steve Leonard
VJS

I believe Andy's comments, as well as mine, were not intended to discourage participation in this event. Instead, they were intended to encourage making Flarm mandatory in such events or at least strongly encourage participants to have flarms, especially if the expected number is high. there was no mention of PowerFlarm at all in the original post, which was the reason for my comment. As Andy pointed out, Nephi is not much different than Moriarty (I flown both). Of course you can fly on any direction from just about most places, but pilots tend to congregate under the best looking cloud street, and within 50 miles radius from the airport the congregation is even higher. Also no one is suggesting that Flarm is more important than transponder, in places Like Moriarty both should be required IMHO.
It is about time that every cross country pilot who can afford owning his own ship and participate in such camps, should have both transponder and PowerFlarm installed and stop risking other people's lives. There, I said it.

Ramy

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 8:51:55 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:

Let the Moriarty Group speak for their requirements for attendance. If you don't like it, tell them. If they won't change, don't go at that time. Pick another time to go fly this amazing site when it won't be so crowded.

Steve Leonard
VJS

Hey Steve.

To my knowledge this event is not Flarm mandatory.

Mandatory or not I was agreeing with Ramy that PowerFlarm is highly advisable at any large gathering of gliders. No site is immune, not even Moriarty. The near midair collision at the regional last year settles that argument.

Keep in mind, the big drivers of risk a how many gliders are flying at the same time and, is the flying with cu or blue. If it's a lot of gliders with cu the probability for conflict will be elevated. If it's cloud streets or convergence, it's higher still. Buddy/mentor flying also makes for elevated potential for collision conflict. On a positive note Flarm is quite helpful and adds to the enjoyment when buddy flying.

I have an extra PowerFlarm Core Pure. I will gladly loan it to anyone who who lacks the financial ability to supply one for themselves.

9B

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 8:51:55 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
so please, back down on your threats of legal action because you feel that flight without FLARM is dangerous.

My apology Steve on the legal thing.

I would never personally threaten legal action - nor would I have any cause for action based on Flarm policy. That would be silly. I don't think that's what I said but I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

I was simply reflecting what actually happens when there is an incident. The lawyers simply don't care if the odds of collision were 200:1 at one site versus 100:1 at another.

Moriarty is not to my knowledge any less safe a flying environment then Nephi or any other soaring site. Again, that was not my point and people should not choose to participate in an XC/OLC camp or contest based on location.

It is the numbers of gliders flying together that should give people pause as to whether they ought to carry Flarm. Since most active pilots at these types of events now carry Flarm, it is whether to carry Flarm that it the choice pilots face rather then whether to attend or not.

Hope that is helpful - New Mexico is one of my favorite venues for big cross-country flying. Everyone should go. I'll even provide the Flarm.

9B