ASG-29E vs. JS-1Jet Sustainer

I know this post is 6 months old, but the ASG-29 is not an ASW-27 with long tips. It has changes to the airfoil, the wing fuselage junction, rudder and mixer. Sure it is based on the ASW-27 but it is a different glider, even in 15 meter configuration it has a different wing area than a 27.

In no way does Schleicher rest on their laurels, which why they have a history of winners in 15 meter, 18 meter and open. The new turbo ASG-29Es,, is the first with a starter. While Jonkers and Lange are and were a welcome addition in technology and competition both the Schleicher and Schempp factory continue to make great gliders that push the limits of production/design/ while still being a viable business.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:00:06 AM UTC-8, Gliding Guru wrote:
Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:49:49 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
...the ASG-29 is not an ASW-27 with long tips...

Is that so? What does the paperwork say it is?

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:49:49 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
...the ASG-29 is not an ASW-27 with long tips...

Is that so? What does the paperwork say it is?

Well and Bell Long Ranger B 206L is certified on the Bell Jet ranger cert B206B, but it is a different aircraft 36 inches longer, different engine, main rotor blades, tail boom, tail rotor blades...etc. Just because the type cert for an ASG-29 says ASW-27-18, does not mean it is the same, there are substantial differences.

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 1:28:41 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:49:49 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
...the ASG-29 is not an ASW-27 with long tips...

Is that so? What does the paperwork say it is?

Well and Bell Long Ranger B 206L is certified on the Bell Jet ranger cert B206B, but it is a different aircraft 36 inches longer, different engine, main rotor blades, tail boom, tail rotor blades...etc. Just because the type cert for an ASG-29 says ASW-27-18, does not mean it is the same, there are substantial differences.

Cow piles! Regardless of what you or anyone else wants to call it, an aircraft is whatever the placard and/or legal paper work says it is. Next time you are around an ASG-29, go look at the placard.

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:49:49 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I know this post is 6 months old, but the ASG-29 is not an ASW-27 with long tips. It has changes to the airfoil, the wing fuselage junction, rudder and mixer. Sure it is based on the ASW-27 but it is a different glider, even in 15 meter configuration it has a different wing area than a 27.

In no way does Schleicher rest on their laurels, which why they have a history of winners in 15 meter, 18 meter and open. The new turbo ASG-29Es,, is the first with a starter. While Jonkers and Lange are and were a welcome addition in technology and competition both the Schleicher and Schempp factory continue to make great gliders that push the limits of production/design/ while still being a viable business.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:00:06 AM UTC-8, Gliding Guru wrote:
Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.


My -27 has been parked next to a -29 all week at Nephi. We've flown together all week - we are both flying with 15-meter tips ;-). The -29 has a slightly different taper break to accommodate the 18-meter tips/span so the tip chord doesn't get too small.This necessitated going from the two-taper planform of the -27 to a three-taper planform even is 15-meter configuration on the -29. I'm sure there was some tweaking of the airfoil to accompany the changes in taper. The rudder has a slightly longer chord to go with the longer span in 18-meter configuration. The fuselage sure looks identical and I can't pick up any differences in how the flaps and ailerons function - it's the usual Schleicher arrangement. I expect the certification authorities allow a number of minor modifications to a design to still qualify as a derivative, which saves a lot on certification for the things that didn't change.

9B

The mixer is actually very different and Schleicher spent much time on this.. So is the lay up schedule for the spar, and an extra layer of carbon on the wing. Wing root airfoil is different and the outboard sections of airfoil have been changed. The empty weight of a 29 compared to a 27 both at 15 meters is about 80 pounds.

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 8:38:55 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The mixer is actually very different and Schleicher spent much time on this. So is the lay up schedule for the spar, and an extra layer of carbon on the wing. Wing root airfoil is different and the outboard sections of airfoil have been changed. The empty weight of a 29 compared to a 27 both at 15 meters is about 80 pounds.

My ASW 27B empty weight was 542 lbs with instruments and one battery. My ASG 29 in 15 Meter(serial # 16) is 585 lbs with the same instruments and one battery. In 18 Meter my ASG 29 weights 606 pds. Been weighted many, many times.

Later models of 29 weight did change due to wing layup. 29 mixer is "blueprinted" so all are exactly the same. On the 27 mixer each was hand made which might have caused a variable which was thought to be not measurable. Remember when the flaps and ailerons are preset at the factory, they are checked very closely as the different selections are made, i.e., from 1 to landing flap.
Same exact mold used for the 27 fuselage is used for the 29 fuselage. Rudders just slightly bigger. Been to the factory, been over this several times. Even saw the 15 meter tip molds when the were brand spanking new.
In 15 Meter the difference between the 27 and 29 will be max wing loading as the 29 will have the higher wing loading of 12.2 V 11.2 for a 27.

JS 1 Jet versus ASG 29 sub with electric start? Either one would be a great choice and its really a owners choice. JS 1 will bring a lower wing loading and better climb in weak conditions. The 29 will have a higher wing loading and better running performance in strong conditions. Either one will be countless smiles!

#711.

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 11:38:55 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The mixer is actually very different and Schleicher spent much time on this. So is the lay up schedule for the spar, and an extra layer of carbon on the wing. Wing root airfoil is different and the outboard sections of airfoil have been changed. The empty weight of a 29 compared to a 27 both at 15 meters is about 80 pounds.

Interesting to read this. When the '29 came out I heard there was a new outboard airfoil and wanted to modify my '27 with it. I pulled templates off a friend's '29 and lo and behold there was no perceptible difference. Certainly the winglet changed but we had done that in 2000. The winglet is very similar to what we did for the '27 back then with thicker, more conservative airfoil.
Obviously the structure changes when you go to 18M.
UH

Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

I have also heard of many complaints about the engine, although the
electric start is at least some attempt to make it better when you really
need it. And as already pointed out, if you are flying out west, the rate
of climb will be very slow.

Schleichers and Schempps go back a long that way but you kind of have to
feel that they are resting on their laurels. The JS brothers eat, breathe
and sleep their JS dream and apart from the 50 ideas they already have to
make the glider better they are coming up with more each day.

The jet system is also not 100 percent yet but I think that with the
partnership at M & D and with the ever greater numbers flying that the
problems will be ironed out. - With the jet it is no problem to climb, even
heavy and at high altitude. And best of all you can pop the jet for a few
extra beat ups at the end of the day!

Glider wise the new 18m evo tips bring the performance up to that of at
least the ASG. The JS1 may have a little better feel in the climb though
and even when its heavy you can pull just a little bit in those tight
thermals and get away with it.

A well flown JS 1c 21m at Ely can rewrite the records books. As proven in
the last worlds if thermal strengths are better than 2 knots there is no
better glider (except for maybe Concordia)! So for the little extra it's a
bargin






At 21:36 27 January 2015, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty
w=
eighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I
w=
ould like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values,
perfor=
mance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

I have also heard of many complaints about the engine, although the
electric start is at least some attempt to make it better when you really
need it. And as already pointed out, if you are flying out west, the rate
of climb will be very slow.

Schleichers and Schempps go back a long that way but you kind of have to
feel that they are resting on their laurels. The JS brothers eat, breathe
and sleep their JS dream and apart from the 50 ideas they already have to
make the glider better they are coming up with more each day.

The jet system is also not 100 percent yet but I think that with the
partnership at M & D and with the ever greater numbers flying that the
problems will be ironed out. - With the jet it is no problem to climb, even
heavy and at high altitude. And best of all you can pop the jet for a few
extra beat ups at the end of the day!

Glider wise the new 18m evo tips bring the performance up to that of at
least the ASG. The JS1 may have a little better feel in the climb though
and even when its heavy you can pull just a little bit in those tight
thermals and get away with it.

A well flown JS 1c 21m at Ely can rewrite the records books. As proven in
the last worlds if thermal strengths are better than 2 knots there is no
better glider (except for maybe Concordia)! So for the little extra it's a
bargin






At 21:36 27 January 2015, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty
w=
eighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I
w=
ould like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values,
perfor=
mance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?