USA Proposed Rule Change on Start Time Reporting

Glider races (Grand Prix being the exception) are time trials and the course distance can vary by ~ 12 miles even in the case of a 2 turn AT. Granted it can be quite amusing to hear the guy you thought you were chasing take a second start, but where's the tactically important info? There isn't any..


-Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan,

Thanks for bringing that up.

I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!

No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.

Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 8:56:10 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Evan,

Thanks for bringing that up.

I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!

No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.

Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

Next up... start line vs 10 mile diameter start cylinder.

4... 3... 2... 1...

Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting

As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.

The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.

As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.

More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.

Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).

A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy.. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.

Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.

Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"

Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.

John Cochrane

If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy. Is that a first in the US? ;-)

At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:24:53 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy.. Is that a first in the US? ;-)

At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

Start times are reported by the team captain, or designee, to the officials.. It is not done over the radio.
There is a lot of intrigue during the start period as teams try to figure out what the other guys are doing. Our team captain in Musbach (Dianne) was quite good at figuring out some of the code. It was helpful to get a call saying "our friends are going in 5 minutes". But- that is a different game than we play here.
FWIW
UH

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and maybe Finland) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone.

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 2:20:07 PM UTC-8, Dave Springford wrote:
As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

In Finland we reported our start times to the team captain.

Sean Franke

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:45:11 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting

As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.

The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.

As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.

More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.

Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).

A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.

Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.

Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"

Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.

John Cochrane

John the US tax code is not fixable. It needs to be rewritten...