NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 8:00:10 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.

I think I've got pretty good grasp on the technology here and I'm having trouble following what you are talking about.

The exact same capability as in the TRX 1090 is already included in the PowerFLARM (with 1090ES receiver).

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

This sentence makes no technical sense, maybe you mistyped something. Filtering out non-GPS data from the PowerFLARM? For what? If all you want is a GPS output as good as PowerFLARM or simmilar devices you can do that for a pretty low component cost. Getting that COTS GPS signal is not the issue, the issue is whether you can use that signal to transmit a ADS-B signal. You cannot do so in the USA in a certified aircraft. And any aircraft you did it in would not meet the 2020 ADS-B Out carriage mandate.

Europe is ahead of the USA? I'd rather look at it as so far Europe has not done some of the particularly stupid things the FAA has done like making ADS-B dual-link, but in other ways Europe is further behind the USA, e.g. there is no European mandate for ADS-B adoption in light/GA aircraft and I hope when it eventually happens it is a lot more sensible than the roll out in the USA.

I'm not sure where 50m accuracy number comes from, but the FAA would tell you their concerns about positional accuracy of a non TSO GPS has worse case concerns greater than this. Its a much more complex discussion, but yes there is a place in this space for a non TSO/IFR GPS receiver, and that is directly acknowledged by TSO-C199, so I'd say the FAA's head is not entirely stuck in the ground, they've looked at this exactly, worked with vendors experienced with COTS GPS technology and this new TSO is the result.

All this ADS-B stuff is largely futureware, not something most pilots should get over-excited about, if you fly gliders in the USA and are worried about fast jets and airliners (and GA aircraft) install a transponder, worried about gliders install a PowerFLARM.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:27:36 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 8:00:10 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.

I think I've got pretty good grasp on the technology here and I'm having trouble following what you are talking about.

The exact same capability as in the TRX 1090 is already included in the PowerFLARM (with 1090ES receiver).

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

This sentence makes no technical sense, maybe you mistyped something. Filtering out non-GPS data from the PowerFLARM? For what? If all you want is a GPS output as good as PowerFLARM or simmilar devices you can do that for a pretty low component cost. Getting that COTS GPS signal is not the issue, the issue is whether you can use that signal to transmit a ADS-B signal. You cannot do so in the USA in a certified aircraft. And any aircraft you did it in would not meet the 2020 ADS-B Out carriage mandate.

Europe is ahead of the USA? I'd rather look at it as so far Europe has not done some of the particularly stupid things the FAA has done like making ADS-B dual-link, but in other ways Europe is further behind the USA, e.g. there is no European mandate for ADS-B adoption in light/GA aircraft and I hope when it eventually happens it is a lot more sensible than the roll out in the USA.

I'm not sure where 50m accuracy number comes from, but the FAA would tell you their concerns about positional accuracy of a non TSO GPS has worse case concerns greater than this. Its a much more complex discussion, but yes there is a place in this space for a non TSO/IFR GPS receiver, and that is directly acknowledged by TSO-C199, so I'd say the FAA's head is not entirely stuck in the ground, they've looked at this exactly, worked with vendors experienced with COTS GPS technology and this new TSO is the result.

All this ADS-B stuff is largely futureware, not something most pilots should get over-excited about, if you fly gliders in the USA and are worried about fast jets and airliners (and GA aircraft) install a transponder, worried about gliders install a PowerFLARM.

ADS-B is NOT futureware. It exists today and is fully functional. Virtually all the ground stations are up and running. ADS-B IN solutions are widely available at very reasonable price points. The only problem is the lack of low cost 2020 certified ADS-B OUT solutions.

Telling glider pilots to ignore this technology is stupid. This is going to be THE collision avoidance technology in the US. Anyone buying equipment today needs to keep an eye on this, so their short term investments fit into the ADS-B environment on a long term basis.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 5:58:39 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

This is going to be THE collision avoidance technology in the US.

Except for gliders, where it does't address the primary collision scenarios today and won't in the future.

ADS-B is architected to complement the ATC 5 mile/1000' separation philosophy. It's not good at close-in, dynamic collision warning the way PowerFlarm is. It doesn't doesn't do position prediction so it can't handle dropped packets the way PowerFlarm can (important close-in). In short it's not at all good for the glider-glider scenario and isn't adaptable to that scenario in the future.

Unless you have a transponder, carrying ADS-B won't light up TCAS carried on all large jets and most corporate jets and turboprops. TCAS will continue to be the primary (and perhaps only) collision warning system on these aircraft even after the 2020 carriage mandate. ADS-B fits in as traffic advisory and leaves TCAS to do collision avoidance.

If you want to stay clear of gliders get a PowerFlarm - that's the ONLY thing you can do today. IF the FAA pursues changes to allow lower cost GPS sources then if you are carrying a suitable Mode-S transponder (like the Trig TT22) you MIGHT be able to upgrade to an affordable full ADS-B 1090 ES In/Out system that would allow you to see/be seen by other ADS-B carrying traffic AND will provide TCAS collision warnings to all TCAS-equipped aircraft.

Stay away from all that ADS-B UAT stuff (unless you want to get a cheap UAT In device to get free aviation weather). Virtually no one is carrying ADS-B UAT Out today and there's no point in carrying a transponder AND an ADS-B UAT Out device when you can just add GPS to your Mode S transponder - which you need anyway for TCAS.

Cheap GPS sources would really finish out the collision avoidance technology picture for glider pilots by allowing glider pilots to install Mode S and PowerFlarm (Core, rather than Core Pure) today and upgrade to add ADS-B 1090 ES Out in the future.

9B

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 10:06:32 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 5:58:39 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

This is going to be THE collision avoidance technology in the US.

Except for gliders, where it does't address the primary collision scenarios today and won't in the future.

ADS-B is architected to complement the ATC 5 mile/1000' separation philosophy. It's not good at close-in, dynamic collision warning the way PowerFlarm is. It doesn't doesn't do position prediction so it can't handle dropped packets the way PowerFlarm can (important close-in). In short it's not at all good for the glider-glider scenario and isn't adaptable to that scenario in the future.

Unless you have a transponder, carrying ADS-B won't light up TCAS carried on all large jets and most corporate jets and turboprops. TCAS will continue to be the primary (and perhaps only) collision warning system on these aircraft even after the 2020 carriage mandate. ADS-B fits in as traffic advisory and leaves TCAS to do collision avoidance.

If you want to stay clear of gliders get a PowerFlarm - that's the ONLY thing you can do today. IF the FAA pursues changes to allow lower cost GPS sources then if you are carrying a suitable Mode-S transponder (like the Trig TT22) you MIGHT be able to upgrade to an affordable full ADS-B 1090 ES In/Out system that would allow you to see/be seen by other ADS-B carrying traffic AND will provide TCAS collision warnings to all TCAS-equipped aircraft.

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:23:22 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
There is nothing inherent in FLARM that makes it superior
to ADS-B in terms of its capability to detect potential glider
to glider collisions. Both technologies transmit the aircraft
location once per second. The resolution of both is limited by
the accuracy of the GPS source. What currently makes FLARM
superior are the collision detection algorithms in the receiver,
which are specifically designed for a glider environment.
There is nothing preventing software developers from developing
similar solutions for use with ADS-B receivers.

The above is utter nonsense.
FLARM transmits the PROJECTED PATH of the aircraft using knowledge
of aircraft type and maneuvering.
ADS-B cannot possibly ever match the collision-avoidance performance
of FLARM for gliders, for this and numerous other reasons.

For anybody interested in actual FACTS as opposed
to authoratively-spoken nonsense on RAS, please see:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm-WhatDoesItDo

Good Grief...

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 8:51:09 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:23:22 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
There is nothing inherent in FLARM that makes it superior
to ADS-B in terms of its capability to detect potential glider
to glider collisions. Both technologies transmit the aircraft
location once per second. The resolution of both is limited by
the accuracy of the GPS source. What currently makes FLARM
superior are the collision detection algorithms in the receiver,
which are specifically designed for a glider environment.
There is nothing preventing software developers from developing
similar solutions for use with ADS-B receivers.

The above is utter nonsense.
FLARM transmits the PROJECTED PATH of the aircraft using knowledge
of aircraft type and maneuvering.
ADS-B cannot possibly ever match the collision-avoidance performance
of FLARM for gliders, for this and numerous other reasons.

For anybody interested in actual FACTS as opposed
to authoratively-spoken nonsense on RAS, please see:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm-WhatDoesItDo

Good Grief...

Thank Dave (who wrote the Flarm software for those out of the loop).

Anyone who has been in close quarters with one or more other gliders can understand the importance of not having multi-second lags in likely flight path conflicts. The prediction engine on the transmitting aircraft is the only way to sort in-close traffic (as opposed to 5mi/1000' traffic).

Mike is right in the sense that the appropriate solution depends on the kind of flying you do. If you fly your glider like a power plane - mostly constant cruise altitude, long straight flight paths, 5mi/1000' separation from other traffic, then ADS-B (when available for installation) might be just fine. But if that's how you fly it might be debatable whether you are a glider pilot in practice.

9B

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 10:00:36 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Thank Dave (who wrote the Flarm software for those out of the loop).

I probably should have said "re-wrote the PowerFLARM code" to be more precise. The Flarm team in Switzerland wrote the original code of course. It is pretty amazing what it can do given how closely gliders fly together.

9B

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:23:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:

This totally depends on what kind of flying you do. If you are flying in contests at remote locations, FLARM may very well be the way to go. If you are flying recreationaly, near major metropolitan areas, ADS-B is definitely of interest if you are concerned about seeing GA or airline traffic.

Here we go again. Mike, we all know you think PowerFLARM is a waste of electrons and that ADS-B is the solution to all the worlds problems, but you are just flat wrong.

With my PowerFLARM, today, I see all transponder (mode C/S) and 1090ES ADS-B aircraft near me, as well as getting really good collision warnings from other PF-equipped gliders.

Since certified aircraft HAVE to have a transponder, in addition to ADS-B (either 1090ES or UAT), there is very little benefit to adding a separate ADS-B in. And if I had a mode S transponder (on the wish list), then there would be NO benefit to having ADS-B out.


There is nothing inherent in FLARM that makes it superior to ADS-B in terms of its capability to detect potential glider to glider collisions. Both technologies transmit the aircraft location once per second. The resolution of both is limited by the accuracy of the GPS source. What currently makes FLARM superior are the collision detection algorithms in the receiver, which are specifically designed for a glider environment. There is nothing preventing software developers from developing similar solutions for use with ADS-B receivers.

Wrong. What is inherently different between FLARM and ADS-B is that FLARM is designed to prevent collisions between cooperating gliders, while ADS-B just gives approximate location without predictive collision warning. ADS-B is not TCAS - which is why transponders are still required!

The key thing to remember is that the ADS-B receivers purely pass along the position data for aircraft targets in the area, whether the data comes directly from an ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, or via TIS-B from an ADS-B ground station (which also shows transponder equipped aircraft). The logic to detect potential collisions is provided by whatever equipment you plug into the receiver. There are going to be lots of opportunities for innovation in this space as this technology gets deployed in the next couple of years..

You completely ignore the fact that gliders tend to congregate and fly together, while power planes tend to avoid each other. So any ADS-B collision warning system would go ape-**** in a gaggle - and with the size of our glider market, I seriously doubt anyone will come out with an ADS-B anti-collision device specifically for gliders, especially since one already exists - FLARM!

For gliders, the ideal solution would be a combination of PowerFLARM and a mode S transponder hooked up to transmit 1090ES position, without the need for a TSOd WAAS GPS. All the hardware is present, just need the FAA to wake up.

Kirk
66

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:

For gliders, the ideal solution would be a combination of PowerFLARM and a mode S transponder hooked up to transmit 1090ES position, without the need for a TSOd WAAS GPS. All the hardware is present, just need the FAA to wake up.


What Kirk said. This is settled science, to borrow a phrase.

9B

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:

For gliders, the ideal solution would be a combination of PowerFLARM and a mode S transponder hooked up to transmit 1090ES position, without the need for a TSOd WAAS GPS. All the hardware is present, just need the FAA to wake up.


What Kirk said. This is settled science, to borrow a phrase.

9B

PowerFLARM still doesn't support TIS-B, so you can't accurately see non ADS-B out equipped A/C.