In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

This thread is off the rails. OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air. Well that's true. It shouldn't really be a surprise now, should it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:37:02 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
This thread is off the rails. OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air. Well that's true. It shouldn't really be a surprise now, should it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

And the scenarios were folks are breaking gliders in wave, at least in the big Sierra wave are just not that scenario, so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ... :-) Well stuff that has at least eaten two gliders in the Reno areas.

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 9:04:03 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:37:02 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
This thread is off the rails. OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air. Well that's true. It shouldn't really be a surprise now, should it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

And the scenarios were folks are breaking gliders in wave, at least in the big Sierra wave are just not that scenario, so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ... :-) Well stuff that has at least eaten two gliders in the Reno areas.

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.

It has not been mentioned in this thread that VNE at the high altitudes associated with wave flight (at least the Sierra wave) is lower than the placard says. This is because flutter speed increases at a slower rate than TAS compared to IAS. Many don't know/remember this. In my glider, the placard VNE is 146 knots IAS but at 18,000 ft this is reduced to 122 knots IAS, at 30,000 less than 100 knots.

True, but nothing wrong with expanding the discussion to the more realistic scenario of what happened recently (which no doubt inspired the OP to start this thread) while still staying on topic.
And yes, one never stop learning and training, my comment was towards the common remark to take a flight with an instructor, as if instructors always have more experience. Many instructors have more experience in takeoff and landings, but not in soaring, XC, wave and extreem weather.

Ramy

Dear Ramy, I too thought that since many instructors do not own their own glider their experience might be limited to take off landing and basic pattern work. Well, that is not true. Not all instructors are created equally. I am licensed to fly everything except hot air balloons and blimps, I have always been able to find an instructor to teach me something new. When I first started to fly the Minden area I took a five hour session with Carl Herold (I do not remember if he was a licensed instructor, but that was not important). Want to learn about ridge flying book a flight with Tom Knauff, at least 13 years ago you could. I took my commercial helicopter check ride with Boeing's chief test pilot. If you want to learn you can ALWAYS find someone better and more experienced than you. One post commented that instruction was for inexperienced (I might be paraphrasing or worse mis-paraphrasing) but I respectfully disagree. I have 7,500 hours in everything from open cockpit biplanes to WWII fighters, gliders, jets. I continually train in whatever I fly. Yes, a few times I did not learn as much as I wanted, but that did not make me stop seeking out the more experienced. I took a very expensive mountain flying class in helicopters and ended up teaching the instructors much, so I got them to comp me a day in the water dunk tank.

To keep expanding the thread there are many more items to think about. What is the terrain like? Lots of ways this can play out depending upon the sounding but there is no way to determine the thickness of the cloud layer. Might set up a perfectly good, stable, and safe descent only to fly it right into the ground. The spiral might allow drifting back into the downward side of the wave and the descent rate will go way up; be prepared for strange instrument readings. The pilot won't know how they will react to unusual and frightening operations. Most people don't fly much wave and make a trip to grab a diamond and tend to go since they just have this weekend of camp to make it.

In general, the OP scenario can be avoided by checking the soundings for the predicted wx during the flight. I know, the forecast can be wrong but taking a look and preparing for the potential can't hurt either. If the trend is the DP and temp getting closer as the day goes on the chance of getting closed in go up. The scenario an be avoided by seeing what the local pilots might do as local knowledge is very valuable. If the wx looks iffy, stay on the ground or change the flight plan. No flight ever has to be made.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:14:19 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
True, but nothing wrong with expanding the discussion

I'm not objecting to that. I'm objecting to people taking answers to specific questions out of the original context and complaining that the answers are no longer correct.

-Evan

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:37:02 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:04:03 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ...

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.

OP here. I'm happy to see discussion of the Sierra Wave scenario, but the scenario I posed is closer to the wave flying that I do in Vermont.

I'm flying in 'baby wave' at 50-60 knots to maintain position in the lift, maybe a little faster if I need to crab north or south to stay above the changing blue hole below. I may fly at Vno when I'm diving through the blue hole. I'm not flying XC and not anywhere near Vne. I can even stay close to the airport. When I'm ready (if ever) for something considerably more difficult, I'll go to the Mount Washington Wave Camp in NH.

It is not the Sierra wave or Mount Washington, but it is still risky. It is often 'wet', the blue holes are smallish, they open, close and move around.. The rotor can become unflyable (while you are still on the ground or above the cloud deck) and one expects rotor in the landing pattern, strong crosswind and sink on final. Landing at 70-80 knots is standard fare.

WRT turbulence in the cloud deck layer, my understanding is that the air in that layer is smooth since the cloud is formed by the laminar flow of air. The cloud forms where it hit the high pressure isobar and dissipates at the low pressure isobar. Basically smooth air, no convection... Am I wrong about this? So assuming not, descending through the cloud deck with a benign spiral seems plausible. Avoiding terrain is a issue and a moving map seems prudent. There is a good possibility of clear air above the valley floor, but the cap cloud likely touches the upwind ridge.

Below the solid cloud deck, there are rotor clouds and turbulence a plenty, and the gamble is that one pops out of the cloud deck between the rotor clouds. When that happens I'll be flying at 50-60 knots unless I get spit out of a rotor cloud and into a spin.

I'd only add, regarding your benign spiral scenario, that you'll be
traveling down wind at the velocity of the wind. Because of that, your
vertical speed will be increasing and decreasing (even gaining altitude
as you pass through rising and sinking air) and you may well break out
of the clouds a ridge or two downwind of your field.

Circumstances vary but, when I'm trying to get down from wave, I fly
slow and draggy rather than fast and clean (near Vne). That way, when I
hit the rotor (out west it's often in clear air) it won't be such a bad
experience.

BTW, having all my wave experience in Colorado and New Mexico, your
description of eastern wave sounds intimidating!

On 4/9/2015 8:51 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:37:02 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air.
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:04:03 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ...

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.
OP here. I'm happy to see discussion of the Sierra Wave scenario, but the scenario I posed is closer to the wave flying that I do in Vermont.

I'm flying in 'baby wave' at 50-60 knots to maintain position in the lift, maybe a little faster if I need to crab north or south to stay above the changing blue hole below. I may fly at Vno when I'm diving through the blue hole. I'm not flying XC and not anywhere near Vne. I can even stay close to the airport. When I'm ready (if ever) for something considerably more difficult, I'll go to the Mount Washington Wave Camp in NH.

It is not the Sierra wave or Mount Washington, but it is still risky. It is often 'wet', the blue holes are smallish, they open, close and move around. The rotor can become unflyable (while you are still on the ground or above the cloud deck) and one expects rotor in the landing pattern, strong crosswind and sink on final. Landing at 70-80 knots is standard fare.

WRT turbulence in the cloud deck layer, my understanding is that the air in that layer is smooth since the cloud is formed by the laminar flow of air. The cloud forms where it hit the high pressure isobar and dissipates at the low pressure isobar. Basically smooth air, no convection... Am I wrong about this? So assuming not, descending through the cloud deck with a benign spiral seems plausible. Avoiding terrain is a issue and a moving map seems prudent. There is a good possibility of clear air above the valley floor, but the cap cloud likely touches the upwind ridge.

Below the solid cloud deck, there are rotor clouds and turbulence a plenty, and the gamble is that one pops out of the cloud deck between the rotor clouds. When that happens I'll be flying at 50-60 knots unless I get spit out of a rotor cloud and into a spin.




--
Dan Marotta

Assuming slowing down first, and with known good VMC below the clouds, are there any comments about coming out of IMC using an intentional spin? (understanding that maximum load during spins is 1-G)