In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

It sounds as though deliberate cloud flying of gliders is much more common in the UK and some other European countries than where most of you fly. Hitherto no special rating has been required in the UK but a glider cloud flying rating has recently been introduced and may be required in due course for any glider flight not under vfr. Equipping gliders with A-H's is routine, most newer ones now being equipped with instant on electronic devices (In many cases, internal to flight computers).

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
It sounds as though deliberate cloud flying of gliders is much more common in the UK

What do you think of depending on basic IFR training in Single Engine Light aircraft as preparation for inadvertent emergency cloud flying in a glider?

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting USA licensed glider pilots?

Latest Easa regulation calls for 2 hrs instruction for glider cloud flying rating (plus theory). Previously our national rating required 5 hrs instruction and even that did not feel like too much. Cloud flying is quite common in UK, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia, i think.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:57:30 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting
USA licensed glider pilots?

I don't know about the situation for visiting pilots at my club but then
again I don't think any have asked. I have no idea how you'd get the
cloud flying rating added to an American license or whether it would be
recognised by the FAA.

Some of our instructors are teaching cloud flying in our Schreibe SF-25
in preparation the introduction of EASA licensing. There is a BGA cloud
flying qualification which is not currently required, but its worth
getting prior to EASA licensing because it will be grandfathered onto the
EASA license: getting it after the license is issued will incur a charge
for adding the rating.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

While the training you could get in the UK would be of benefit if you
"inadvertently" get caught in cloud, you still could not legally fly a
glider in clouds in the US. Note that if the FAA learned that you'd
been caught in a cloud, they could very well take certificate action
against you for violating cloud clearance regulations.

Note further that to fly in clouds in the US the pilot has to have an
instrument rating and there is no such thing for gliders in the US. The
aircraft also has to be certified for flight in IMC which includes such
mundane things as a certified attitude indicator, altimeter, gyro
compass (maybe), pitot/static checks, etc.

Training would be helpful if you remain unaware of your surroundings but
I maintain that part of being pilot in command is being sure that that
doesn't happen. Having said that, I have a TruTrac mounted in my panel
and have a boat load of training and actual IMC flying and I still
wouldn't give myself a 100% chance of coming out the bottom or side of a
cloud in straight and level flight given the circumstances that started
this thread.

Good flying!

On 4/18/2015 7:02 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:57:30 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting
USA licensed glider pilots?
I don't know about the situation for visiting pilots at my club but then
again I don't think any have asked. I have no idea how you'd get the
cloud flying rating added to an American license or whether it would be
recognised by the FAA.

Some of our instructors are teaching cloud flying in our Schreibe SF-25
in preparation the introduction of EASA licensing. There is a BGA cloud
flying qualification which is not currently required, but its worth
getting prior to EASA licensing because it will be grandfathered onto the
EASA license: getting it after the license is issued will incur a charge
for adding the rating.



--
Dan Marotta

Have you looked at FAR 61.57 ?

"
(6) Maintaining instrument recent experience in a glider.

(i) Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person must have performed and logged at least the following instrument currency tasks, iterations, and flight time, and the instrument currency must have been performed in actual weather conditions or under simulated weather conditions--

(A) One hour of instrument flight time in a glider or in a single engine airplane using a view-limiting device while performing interception and tracking courses through the use of navigation electronic systems.

(B) Two hours of instrument flight time in a glider or a single engine airplane with the use of a view-limiting device while performing straight glides, turns to specific headings, steep turns, flight at various airspeeds, navigation, and slow flight and stalls.

(ii) Before a pilot is allowed to carry a passenger in a glider under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, that pilot must--

(A) Have logged and performed 2 hours of instrument flight time in a glider within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight.

(B) Use a view-limiting-device while practicing performance maneuvers, performance airspeeds, navigation, slow flight, and stalls.
"


So there is at least some FAA framework for glider IFR.

Todd Smith
3S

You have already had a couple of sensible replies. It is early days in terms of formalised regulation and training for cloud flying in the UK. My club plans to offer suitable training in a motor glider but has not yet started to do so. In a year or two there may be better defined training programmes..

Up to now, pilots who cloud fly have generally been self taught, learning by trial and error. I wonder what you understand by 'basic IFR training?' I have an IMC rating for my single engine PPL - a low level rating for flying in IMC, which you can get after 15 hours flight training and practical and written tests. The tests include partial panel recovery from unusual attitudes. This was sufficient to get me grandfather rights for the future EASA cloud flying requirements. It was also sufficient to make me comfortably able to thermal in cloud with the benefit of a an A-H. However, when I do so I know that I am vulnerable to not having the resilience or redundancy of instrumentation required for powered flight in IMC. My backup plan for loss of control or instrumentation is to open the air brakes before the speed gets high.

I certainly would not "depend" on basic IFR training for an inadvertent excursion into the clouds, but it should be part of the quiver of skills and preparation. Most training single engine aircraft are very stable and will re-establish level flight if you take your hands off the controls. Try the IFR training in a MD 500, that is rather thrilling

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 3:57:33 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
It sounds as though deliberate cloud flying of gliders is much more common in the UK

What do you think of depending on basic IFR training in Single Engine Light aircraft as preparation for inadvertent emergency cloud flying in a glider?

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting USA licensed glider pilots?

Does anyone know the history of glider cloud flying in the USA? Was it ever allowed under FAR?

Was the prohibition part of the negotiation that allowed the XPNDR exemption for gliders?

If it were allowed, would it play out any differently in the USA than it has in the UK?

Did Lucky Chucker has an AH over Reno? Was he current with IFR? Did he practice IFR in his glider?

If it were allowed under the FARs, I think people would have proper instruments installed and training in motor gliders would be available in the USA.

Installing instruments that you're not allowed to use without declaration of an emergency is a rather odd state of affairs.

I hope any alert and better-informed readers will correct any errors of fact
which may follow, but here's my non-anally-informed input...

Does anyone know the history of glider cloud flying in the USA? Was it
ever allowed under FAR?

A comment regarding the trailing question above...the FARs/CFRs don't
prescribe what is possible, rather what is impossible (by regulation). If it
ain't forbidden, it's legal...even if perhaps not the wisest of acts.

Yes, cloud flying was legal at one time for gliders in the U.S. My
casually-educated guess is it became - for all practical purposes - illegal
after the 1955 mid-air between a DC-7 and a Constellation over the Grand
Canyon, after which the guts of today's ATC became the regulation of the
land...assigned IFR cruising altitudes, continuous radar contact, etc.

Johnny Robinson was probably the first U.S. glider pilot to become proficient
on instruments inside convective clouds, and at one time it wasn't rare to
(legally) go after diamond altitude climbs inside towering cu. Robinson once
essentially doubled the score of the pilot in 2nd place in a Wichita Falls
(working from memory) contest during a moist spell; as the only
instrument-capable pilot in that contest, he told me he spent the bulk of the
contest running out the side of one cu into the next, several thousands of
feet above cloud base.
- - - - - -

Was the prohibition part of the negotiation that allowed the XPNDR
exemption for gliders?

Transponders came along later.
- - - - - -

If it were allowed, would it play out any differently in the USA than it
has in the UK?

Now THERE's an open-ended question...!
- - - - - -

Did Lucky Chucker has an AH over Reno? Was he current with IFR? Did he
practice IFR in his glider?

Indeed inquiring minds would like to know. As (so it's my belief) an ex Thud
driver, I'd expect him to have been quite instrument proficient once upon a
time, but the devil is in the details...
- - - - - -

Bob W.