Chukar's own account

On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
I would throw out everything you have got and DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK. The plane's stick free pitch stability is MUCH worse than its stick fixed stability. When you let go, you are a passenger, accepting whatever the upset brings you. Stay active, and aware of what is happening, and you have a chance. Even if Active is just holding the stick in one position.



Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right control inputs to get you out of trouble?

Yes, it is called benign spiral...

Ramy

Le jeudi 23 avril 2015 10:19:49 UTC+2, Ramy a écrit*:
Yes, it is called benign spiral...

Ramy

I think that the benign spiral is an urban myth when it comes to flying in a convective cloud, or descending through a cloud layer into a rotor.

The only excuse to let go of the controls is that you are busy to bail out.

On Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:51:24 -0700, krasw wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control inputs to get you out of trouble?

As I said in another thread, our (BGA-approved) cloud flying course says
to open the brakes and then use your hands and feet to hold rudder and
stick central - exactly the opposite of 'letting go of the stick'.

Mark: Chukar does say that he felt a stall and then the speed increased
rapidly to 160kts.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:21:49 +0000, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Interesting read. I wondered what Wolfgang Langweische had the say on the
subject (pages 342-345 in my copy). He's not as prescriptive but I think
his explanation and analysis is better.

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly. If you
or your club does winch launches, add a couple of launch failures to the
spin checks: the CFI can pull the bung himself or arrange for the winch
driver to simulate a power failure at an agreed altitude.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory annual spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And when IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training Gap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that should not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...

At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
annual
=
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
when
=
IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
G=
ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
sh=
ould not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...


I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
current
737 driver.
His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
regain
airspeed and pulled the wings off "
And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
has
to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .

Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 12:00:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathon May wrote:
At 14:08 23 April 2015, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

Of course the answer is good pre-solo spin training and mandatory
annual
=
spin checks at the start of each season: no spin checks, no fly.=20

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA. And
when
=
IMC or a spin turn out bad, it's a Tragic Accident, not a Tragic Training
G=
ap. The UK is reckless to provide training for these 'eventualities that
sh=
ould not happen' before they happen.

Sincerely, ****ed Off and Not Serious...


I related the story to my so in law a a lapsed glider instructor and
current
737 driver.
His answer before I really finished was "his pitot froze,dived to try to
regain
airspeed and pulled the wings off "
And of course that makes sense the airframe is cold soaked and the cloud
has
to be wet or it wouldn't be a cloud .

Just wish it had been so obvious to me.

I think this could be the case in a power plane but not a glider. We dont easily get fooled by a frozen pitot thanks to wind noise, especially not an experience pilot like Bob. Also his airspeed was showing over 160 knots before the wings broke off, so I very much doubt this is a case of frozen pitot. This is a simple case of loosing control due to disorientation in the cloud without proper instruments to regain control. Stall, spin turned into spiral, pilot pulls the stick instinctively to slow down which of course only make things worse in spiral, until wings broke off.

Ramy

LS6 does NOT have a benign spiral mode. And if I stall IMC with the flaps in cruise or thermalling position, it won't spin either - it will depart directly into a spiral. Which unless corrected pretty quickly, will leave you with a 1 meter wingspan LS6.

Without gyro instuments and training, IMC in a modern glass glider is a quick way to destroy that glider.

With gyros and training, it's just another skill - ask the Brits, who seem pretty good at it.

I suggest Son_of_Flubber get some education on how the Brits practice cloud flying before calling them "reckless".

A subscription to "Sailplane and Gliding" (The BGA's magazine) would be a good start to his education....

Kirk
LS6b 66