Chukar's own account

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 9:08:24 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Spin and Cloud Flying training are just too dangerous in the USA.

Would you care to explain this remarkable statement?

How many accidents/injuries/fatalities annually are attributed to spin and cloud flying training in the USA?

Statistically, I would argue that landing training is just too dangerous in the USA, so we can just all pack up and go home now...

Kirk
66

torstai 23. huhtikuuta 2015 15.30.04 UTC+3 Jock Proudfoot kirjoitti:
At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Thanks for interesting link. Trick calls for exact rudder input from the pilot, which is impossible in imc without gyros. And to extrapolate this to cover all gliders sounds like a major leap of faith. Paradoxically, stable spin would be safe way to get out of the cloud without instruments. But I'm not advocating that, most gliders will spin for a while and then go into spiral until things start to break apart.

On 4/23/2015 5:21 AM, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
At 06:51 23 April 2015, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:

Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control in puts to get you out of trouble?


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

Try it. I did. You may like it.

I never really needed it.

MG

--
Mike I Green

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:


The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

This applies to POWER PLANES in a SPIN. It DOES NOT APPLY to a modern glass glider IN A SPIRAL DIVE.

Anyone who doesn't understand the fundamental difference between these two situations really needs to get in the books!

Kirk
66

I have given a lot of thought as to what I would do in my Ventus b given such circumstances and my conclusion is one that I have tried in the ventus but not in any other glider. I would ask Kirk to try it in his ls6 and report back.

Thinking of what breaks gliders up and it always comes down to speed. Over speed and something breaks off. So for the Ventus B the only way to be able to control only the speed, I would say here that the other two axis have to be at the stops so that the only thing I am controlling is pitch and therefore speed, BEFORE losing spacial awareness, I get it as dirty as I can. Full dive brakes, gear down. I don't have to worry about flaps as when the dive brakes our fully open the flaps are down, but if I have time I would put then down as well as it puts the ailerons down a bit as well. Then cross control to full deflection of the stick and depression of the rudder, doesn't matter which direction as long as you go to full deflection. Once the stick is at the aileron stop the only movement is pitch and that I focus on the airspeed indicator and keep it between 60-90 knots.

Now in the ventus this gives me a slow turning (30-45 second) spiral dive that is fairly stable and even in turbulence is easy enough to maintain 60-90 kts. This allows me to concentrate on only one thing airspeed. This is also giving me about a 2000 fpm descent rate usually enough to come out the bottom of most any cloud.

Any way, I would like to see if that would work in almost any glider or is it unique to the ventus. Flame shields on!

CH

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 4:50:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have given a lot of thought as to what I would do in my Ventus b given such circumstances and my conclusion is one that I have tried in the ventus but not in any other glider. I would ask Kirk to try it in his ls6 and report back.

Thinking of what breaks gliders up and it always comes down to speed. Over speed and something breaks off. So for the Ventus B the only way to be able to control only the speed, I would say here that the other two axis have to be at the stops so that the only thing I am controlling is pitch and therefore speed, BEFORE losing spacial awareness, I get it as dirty as I can. Full dive brakes, gear down. I don't have to worry about flaps as when the dive brakes our fully open the flaps are down, but if I have time I would put then down as well as it puts the ailerons down a bit as well. Then cross control to full deflection of the stick and depression of the rudder, doesn't matter which direction as long as you go to full deflection. Once the stick is at the aileron stop the only movement is pitch and that I focus on the airspeed indicator and keep it between 60-90 knots.

Now in the ventus this gives me a slow turning (30-45 second) spiral dive that is fairly stable and even in turbulence is easy enough to maintain 60-90 kts. This allows me to concentrate on only one thing airspeed. This is also giving me about a 2000 fpm descent rate usually enough to come out the bottom of most any cloud.

Any way, I would like to see if that would work in almost any glider or is it unique to the ventus. Flame shields on!

CH

I will make a point to try this in my Ventus C next time I have lots of altitude, and report back.

Matt

Beggs/Mueller only works on aircraft certified for spins, because those aircraft will naturally exit the spin. Planes slow to exit the spin (like my Mooney http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html) need brisk full forward elevator. And even those certified for spins, with B/M, the CG needs to be far enough forward that the aircraft will nose over when the rotation stops. Even then (and I've posted this before), once the spin stops, you still have to break the dive without exceeding Vne (too slowly) and without a secondary accelerated stall (too fast).

here's a video of me in upset training recovering from an inverted spin using B/M: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVFhkQmXng

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 8:30:04 AM UTC-4, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
http://spirit.eaa.org/intheloop/arti...n_recovery.asp

On 4/23/2015 12:51 AM, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 23 April 2015 04:52:26 UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
I would throw out everything you have got and DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK.
The plane's stick free pitch stability is MUCH worse than its stick fixed
stability. When you let go, you are a passenger, accepting whatever the
upset brings you. Stay active, and aware of what is happening, and you
have a chance. Even if Active is just holding the stick in one
position.



Where does this "let go of the stick" comes from? Never seen it in any
glider flight manual. Is there some magical airplane that does right
control inputs to get you out of trouble?


For SSA members, check out the "Soaring" archive: November 1979, p. 28.

http://www.ssa.org/Archive/ViewIssue...nth=11&page=28

Attributed 2nd-hand to Einar Enevoldson (I couldn't find a direct writeup from
him, though maybe it's there); bullet 5 begins: "Take your hands and feet
completely off the controls..." The succinct article also contains "all the
expected caveats" known to the author at the time, while additional "benign
spiral mode" references within the archives elaborate on the points raised.

For many years (most of his career?), Einar Enevoldson was a NASA test pilot,
in addition to being a 3-diamond sailplane pilot, eventually sparkplug behind
the Perlan Project, and current world sailplane record altitude co-holder.

Bob W.