Needed: Inexpensive AHRS module to work with Oudie, XCsoar, LK8000, etc...

I understand that an AHRS, compared to a Truetrak, is going to produce more consistent results in the hands of a trained and current pilot.

But will the AHRS require more training to use and stay current compared to the Truetrak? And not being a power pilot, I've zero experience with a panel mounted attitude indicator. My tactile attitude indicator is stick position fore-aft.

Seems like (after a few hours of IFR training) I could practice using the Truetrak and ASI in my routine VFR thermaling. And Kirk mentioned the desirability of a large AHRS display... I only have space for a 57mm display in my panel.

Seems like the Truetrak would be the clear best bet for me. The visual simplicity is intuitively appealing. Am I missing something?

I understand that an IFR-rated pilot would want an AHRS in a glider, but that is not me.

I have flown with Truetrack.
I don't think there is any way to say that a Truetrack is a more natural...less complex....easier to learn instrument than an AHRS.
An AHRS is an accurate representation of the aircraft's attitude to the horizon. Dead simple graphics.

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 7:32:13 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
I understand that an AHRS, compared to a Truetrak, is going to produce more consistent results in the hands of a trained and current pilot.

Some definitions are in order:

AHRS stands for Attitude Heading Reference System. In the big expensive iron, it's the suite of expensive sensors (gyros, accelerometers, magnetic heading sensor) that provide data to the attitude displays.

Nowadays there are tons of inexpensive solidstate devices that have been developed for cars, RC helos, UAVs etc that can provide basically the same data: real time attitude (pitch, roll, yaw).

Using this data to drive a big, modern attitude display makes flying IMC a LOT easier, as it comes closer to "a window on the real world", instead of a pictorial representation of what your aircraft is doing. Old school instruments such as a turn and bank, turn coordinator, Tru-Track, or even a mechanical attitude indicator are really just mechanical ways to present attitude information, and require lots of training and practice to use safely. A good attitude display, on something like an Oudie or equivalent, would be easier to use, IMO. It would still need training to use, and it's really tough to simulate the feeling of vertigo that can result from flying in real IMC, but it would sure beat not having anything!


But will the AHRS require more training to use and stay current compared to the Truetrak? And not being a power pilot, I've zero experience with a panel mounted attitude indicator. My tactile attitude indicator is stick position fore-aft.

I would say the opposite. A modern glass cockpit attitude indicator is pretty intuitive, while a Trutrak is an old-school instrument. A PC simulator could be used to show how to interpret and use an attitude display - but if you have never flown under the hood or in real IMC that kind of training would be HIGHLY recommended! Vertigo is nothing to be sneezed at!


Seems like (after a few hours of IFR training) I could practice using the Truetrak and ASI in my routine VFR thermaling. And Kirk mentioned the desirability of a large AHRS display... I only have space for a 57mm display in my panel.

Forget the small instrument display - get a cheap PNA and have a big 5 in color display! That's what I want!

Seems like the Truetrak would be the clear best bet for me. The visual simplicity is intuitively appealing. Am I missing something?

Yes. Truetraks are meant to be backup, emergency instruments. My idea is to provide a modern attitude display, available instantly, on our pretty much ubiquitous moving map displays. Trust me, the difference is night and day! Or more likely, life or death!!

I understand that an IFR-rated pilot would want an AHRS in a glider, but that is not me.

Take some time to look at all the latest cockpit display coming out for airplanes - they are all going to big screen attitude displays - for a good reason! As far as cost, solid state AHRS sensors combined with a good display is cheaper and more reliable than ANY hardware attitude indicator, and provides so much more situational and attitude awareness that there is really no comparison. The only thing better is a wide angle HUD, but those get a bit heavy and use a lot of power ;^).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

ixGyro Pro.
About $70, pluS à Galaxy smartphone (which carries gyros, magnetic & accelerometer).

Bert
TW

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 11:54:29 PM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
ixGyro Pro.
About $70, pluS à Galaxy smartphone (which carries gyros, magnetic & accelerometer).

Bert
TW

Sure, or Xavion and an iPhone. But it would be nice to integrate something "simple" with the displays that are already in our cockpits, not add another thing to carry. I can just see getting sucked into a cloud and fumbling for my iPhone ;^(

Kirk
66

We're a tiny market. The biggest cost of any device like this is the fixed cost of developing software etc. The massive sales of 100 or so worldwide are unlikely to be a huge investment.

FWIW, there's a very nice device that a lot of power pilots like, the Stratus 2. It ain't $70, and the software is another $75 a year, but anyone who's willing to risk IMC should probably be willing to spend more than $70 anyway.

Really??!!!
You enter a cloud and then your are going to fumble for your i-Phone?
Or, you enter a cloud and start losing control of your aircraft...then you are going to be able to control your i-phone with a touchpad while G-forces are tossing you about??
You need to really think about this.

I think the OP is on the right track. If you aren't flying with one of those varios-with-extra-bells-and-whistles that turns into an artificial horizon at the flip of a switch, why not have SOMETHING for emergency use in cloud? Especially if you are already flying with a tablet display anyway, for other purposes? In another thread I made one suggestion, but a full-fledged artificial horizon display is a better way to go, so long as it works reliably. Such a display can be displayed on tablet or whatever and driven by a commercially available AHRS sensor unit. Those units are widely available, as a bit a googling will reveal. Here's one link among many: http://www.aviation.levil.com/products.html .

Of course it goes WITHOUT SAYING that your tablet or cell phone or whatever is going to be rigidly mounted in your cockpit. You certainly don't want to be trying to look at a moving object as you try to control your aircraft in cloud. And it also goes without saying that all of this is for emergency use only.

Me personally-- I still like the simple, completely self-contained nature of the piezoelectric turn rate indicator I linked to earlier, at the top of the related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters". I don't want to worry about all this other stuff. And I've practiced enough to know how to make use of the simpler instrument. And as noted elsewhere, the TruTrac is essentially the same thing, just a better implementation and a lot more bucks. But if you were to hand me a tablet running an artificial horizon display, AHRS system, appropriate mounts, fully charged batteries, etc, all ready go, I'd take them and say "thanks"-- especially if the ground were nowhere to be seen!

S

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

WOW! Very well said, Evan.

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta