Ads-b and sailplanes

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
AeroSports Update: An ADS-B Choice For Experimental Aircraft
The NavWorx ADS600-EXP Is An ADS-B Solution That Is Tailored Towards The Experimental Aircraft Market
NavWorx, Inc. claims they were the first to announce a truly affordable solution for experimental and LSA aircraft owners with the release of its ADS600-EXP. This announcement came on the heels of the FAA's ADS-B rule interpretation in February that devices must meet the "performance requirements" of TSO-C154c, but do not have to be TSO'ed.
NavWorx says their ADS600-EXP is a complete ADS-B solution for experimental and LSA aircraft. The ADS600-EXP communicates with a wide variety of display systems via Wi-Fi and RS232. For a limited time, NavWorx is offering the ADS600-EXP at a price of $869.00.
Design of the NavWorx ADS600-EXP is based on the company's ADS600-B, a FAA TSO/STC certified unit. Both comply with the ADS-B mandates of TSO-C154c and TSO-C145c. The ADS600-EXP is a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) and provides full ADS-B Out and In operations.
All ADS600 UAT devices come with NavWorx' patent-pending TransMonSPETM. This device installs on the aircraft's existing transponder coax cable to provide for single point of entry of the squawk code, ident, and Mode A/C. TransMonSPETM also provides pressure encoder data to the ADS600-series. It meets the FAA's requirement to have a single point of entry for the squawk code, and satisfies the specification that requires both the transponder and ADS-B to use the same pressure encoder. TransMonSPETM is TSO certified and will interface with older transponders eliminating any need to replace the transponder or altitude encoder.
NavWorx ADS-B solutions are also available for type certificated aircraft offering solutions for operators with a variety of installation requirements. The company also offers pre-built harnesses and coax cables.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...9-2e656d396961
Reprinted with permission from Aero-News.net

A nice price point (for experimental aircraft), but a UAT only (not 1090ES) Out/In only device. The big issue there is it won't make that aircraft visible to a PowerFLARM via ADS-B... which is why towplane owners who need to meet the ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate will hopefully wait for the market to improve and do ADS-B out with 1090ES.

Dual Receiver option 1090ES RECEIVER ADD-IN for $89.

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 9:26:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Dual Receiver option 1090ES RECEIVER ADD-IN for $89.

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

That still won't make any aircraft equipped with this visible to a PowerFLARM.

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 1:36:32 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

That still won't make any aircraft equipped with this visible to a PowerFLARM.

No, but since you still have to have a Mode A/C/S transponder when you install the ADS600_EXP, that aircraft is ALREADY visible to a PowerFLARM.

You CANNOT have JUST an UAT-based ADS-B in/out system. It's either UAT-out/in WITH a Mode A/C/S transponder, OR 1090 ES ADS-B out, and UAT-in for the freebie weather and traffic, etc.

RTFM, guys!

Kirk
66

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 11:13:55 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 1:36:32 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

That still won't make any aircraft equipped with this visible to a PowerFLARM.

No, but since you still have to have a Mode A/C/S transponder when you install the ADS600_EXP, that aircraft is ALREADY visible to a PowerFLARM.

You CANNOT have JUST an UAT-based ADS-B in/out system. It's either UAT-out/in WITH a Mode A/C/S transponder, OR 1090 ES ADS-B out, and UAT-in for the freebie weather and traffic, etc.

RTFM, guys!

Kirk
66

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 5:02:29 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

Oh get real, Mike. The subset of aircraft that are exempt from the transponder mandate that will bother to put anykind of ADS-B is pretty small. At best, there will be a relatively cheap battery-powered system developed that will fill that niche (ultralights, powered chutes - and maybe some training gliders/towplanes. But for the rest of the aviation world, the need to fly above 10,000 and in Class C/B airspace means transponders. And if you don't need to fly there, they won't bother with any ADS-B - heck, many club gliders in the US don't even have radios!


With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

You need more than just the transceivers - you need the control interface and the display system - AND an electrical system to power it. All that for less than $1000? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath!


This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

So, if my concern is about fast movers (out West, or near a Class B airport, I'm still better off with a Mode S transponder, and eventually add the ADS-B ES kit to get full ADS-B if I want the weather. And sure, if the magical cheap UAT device starts popping up in all the flying machines in my vicinity, then I would get one too. But until all this fantasy gear is reality, I'll continue to be protected by my PowerFLARM.

And again: Would you please spec out for me your idea of an actual UAT-based ADS-B system (hardware, software, cost) that one can buy TODAY and install in their glider, that provides at least as much situational awareness as the PowerFLARM has been providing me for the past 3 years? So far, all I see is talk - but nothing remotely useful coming out of your mouth. Step up, man!

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:52:06 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 5:02:29 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

Oh get real, Mike. The subset of aircraft that are exempt from the transponder mandate that will bother to put anykind of ADS-B is pretty small. At best, there will be a relatively cheap battery-powered system developed that will fill that niche (ultralights, powered chutes - and maybe some training gliders/towplanes. But for the rest of the aviation world, the need to fly above 10,000 and in Class C/B airspace means transponders. And if you don't need to fly there, they won't bother with any ADS-B - heck, many club gliders in the US don't even have radios!


With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

You need more than just the transceivers - you need the control interface and the display system - AND an electrical system to power it. All that for less than $1000? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath!


This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

So, if my concern is about fast movers (out West, or near a Class B airport, I'm still better off with a Mode S transponder, and eventually add the ADS-B ES kit to get full ADS-B if I want the weather. And sure, if the magical cheap UAT device starts popping up in all the flying machines in my vicinity, then I would get one too. But until all this fantasy gear is reality, I'll continue to be protected by my PowerFLARM.

And again: Would you please spec out for me your idea of an actual UAT-based ADS-B system (hardware, software, cost) that one can buy TODAY and install in their glider, that provides at least as much situational awareness as the PowerFLARM has been providing me for the past 3 years? So far, all I see is talk - but nothing remotely useful coming out of your mouth. Step up, man!

Kirk
66

If you want a fully functional ADS-B IN / OUT system for under $1,000 you'll probably have to wait until this fall. These systems are going to use iPAD or iPHONE apps to provide the user interface. (I'm not counting the cost of iPhone / iPAD in the price of the system, as most people have these devices anyway).

At this price point, these devices are going to be very popular in the General Aviation community. It's perplexing to me why the PowerFLARM guys don't get with the program and come up with a dual frequency ADS-B receiver or support TIS-B and ADS-R so they can have a competitive product in this space.

... For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates.

Is that really true? The way I am reading the mandate, ADS-B OUT will be required for gliders that operate inside the Mode-C veil and above 10,000 feet. I know that doesn't apply to most of us, but there are at least several operations in the West that will be directly impacted. I'd love to be mistaken about this.

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:56:11 PM UTC-4, 2KA wrote:
... For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates.

Is that really true? The way I am reading the mandate, ADS-B OUT will be required for gliders that operate inside the Mode-C veil and above 10,000 feet. I know that doesn't apply to most of us, but there are at least several operations in the West that will be directly impacted. I'd love to be mistaken about this.

See https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225

The relevant section is 91.225(e). It specifically permits operation of gliders without being ADS-B OUT equipped inside the Mode C veil and above 10,000 ft as long as you are not operating in Class A, B, or C airspace. Note: You also can not operate above Class B airspace in a glider if you are not ADS-B OUT equipped.

Another interesting requirement is that above 18,000 ft, you need to be 1090ES ADS-B OUT equipped. While the statute permits you to operate with an ATC waiver, there is no guarantee that this will be authorized. It's up to the local ATC jurisdiction to make the call. It will be interesting to see how this is handled with Wave windows. Hopefully the downward pricing trends of UAT ADS-B OUT equipment will also put pressure on 1090ES vendors to sharpen their pencils. If I were planning on flying in Wave, I would probably look pretty hard at using a 1090ES solution vs. a lower cost UAT transmitter.

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 9:59:01 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
AeroSports Update: An ADS-B Choice For Experimental Aircraft
The NavWorx ADS600-EXP Is An ADS-B Solution That Is Tailored Towards The Experimental Aircraft Market
NavWorx, Inc. claims they were the first to announce a truly affordable solution for experimental and LSA aircraft owners with the release of its ADS600-EXP. This announcement came on the heels of the FAA's ADS-B rule interpretation in February that devices must meet the "performance requirements" of TSO-C154c, but do not have to be TSO'ed.
NavWorx says their ADS600-EXP is a complete ADS-B solution for experimental and LSA aircraft. The ADS600-EXP communicates with a wide variety of display systems via Wi-Fi and RS232. For a limited time, NavWorx is offering the ADS600-EXP at a price of $869.00.
Design of the NavWorx ADS600-EXP is based on the company's ADS600-B, a FAA TSO/STC certified unit. Both comply with the ADS-B mandates of TSO-C154c and TSO-C145c. The ADS600-EXP is a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) and provides full ADS-B Out and In operations.
All ADS600 UAT devices come with NavWorx' patent-pending TransMonSPETM. This device installs on the aircraft's existing transponder coax cable to provide for single point of entry of the squawk code, ident, and Mode A/C. TransMonSPETM also provides pressure encoder data to the ADS600-series. It meets the FAA's requirement to have a single point of entry for the squawk code, and satisfies the specification that requires both the transponder and ADS-B to use the same pressure encoder. TransMonSPETM is TSO certified and will interface with older transponders eliminating any need to replace the transponder or altitude encoder.
NavWorx ADS-B solutions are also available for type certificated aircraft offering solutions for operators with a variety of installation requirements. The company also offers pre-built harnesses and coax cables.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...9-2e656d396961
Reprinted with permission from Aero-News.net

A nice price point (for experimental aircraft), but a UAT only (not 1090ES) Out/In only device. The big issue there is it won't make that aircraft visible to a PowerFLARM via ADS-B... which is why towplane owners who need to meet the ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate will hopefully wait for the market to improve and do ADS-B out with 1090ES.

At this price point, there are going to be a lot of GA aircraft buying this, or similar UAT products, to meet the 2020 mandate. That's reality folks. If you buy PowerFlarm, you're not going to see these aircraft. Do you really want to invest in this kind of half baked technology?