General Zinni on Sixty Minutes

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2004 10:59:43 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 27 May 2004 11:13:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:

Ed:

Trust me, I care very much about the folks in uniform.

Then act like it.

Walt

Tsk. Tsk. You lose the high ground when you lose your temper. He's
entitled to disagree with you, as you are with him, but there's no need for
anyone to be disagreeable about it. Let's keep the discussion on a civil
plane, please.

I don't lose my temper, however I also have a deep reluctance to
suffer fools, gladly or not.

I believe you introduced a four letter expletive that starts with the letter "F"
into the exchange. Since I don't recall it being in response to similar
language from Walt, I'm sure you'll forgive me for thinking that you had gotten
a tad ****ed off to the point of sort of losing it. If not, then you sure as
hell fooled me.

.....Until someone offers credentials, I won't
be told whether or not I value our troops nor how to act.

Since I'm not the one who started the discussion, I'm going to stay out of it
and let Walt deal with that.

BTW, your comment on the French was ill advised, IMHO. They were exposed to
Islamic terrorism long before we were when Algeria blew up in their faces
after WWII. It might benefit us to try to learn something from their
experiences with it instead of trying to put them down because they refuse
to dance to our tune. In addition, their current contributions to our
efforts against terrorism in Afghanistan is somewhat larger than many of
those of our vaunted coalition allies in Iraq. They deserve somewhat better
than the condescension with which you deal with them. But that's just my
opinion, and I hope you will allow me that without tearing me a new asshole
for daring to make that point.

It wasn't condescension, it was merely statement of fact.

C'mon, Ed, be honest....it was a deliberate put down and you know it. In the
early part of our engagement in Afghanistan, the French sent a carrier to the
Middle East and committed their entire air complement to our initial efforts
against AQ and the Taliban. I don't know how long they stayed and took part in
the operation, but we didn't tell them to go home and take their dolls and
dishes with them. From what I understand, they still have some of their
equivalent of our special forces committed in Afghanistan as we speak, although
I must admit that I have no idea of how many troops we're talking about.

.....There is hardly a nation in the world that hasn't suffered terrorism in
one
form or another--much of it isn't muslim extremist. But, it is
difficult to deny the fact that failure to respond to terrorism
doesn't offer much in the way of results.

I don't recall that I made that suggestion, so refuting it to me is sort of
wasted effort.

.....To abjectly declare that we are somehow responsible for it and that if we
simply
understand their pain, join hands and sing Kumbaya together it will all go
away is
foolishness of the highest order.

Again, I'm not the one who may have suggested that we are somehow responsible
for the terrorism inflicted on us so I don't understand why you felt obliged to
direct that remark to me. IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and introducing
it into the discussion didn't seem warranted to me.

Simply declining to participate would have been a choice available to
the French, however undermining our diplomatic efforts, duplicity in
the UN and a clear economic linkage to the Saddam regime have combined
to make the French involvement in the Iraq question less than
reasonable behavior.

Is there some way for the French to say "no" to our efforts to get them and the
rest of the UN to participate with us other than saying "no"? Maybe, if we
didn't want them to run their chops, we'd have been better advised to stop
pushing them to sign on. French political leaders, too, have a public that they
have to justify their actions to, as we do and, as I recall, their public was
not in favor of them joining in with us at the time.

As for any rending, tearing or surgical rearrangement of your
posterior, I will refrain since you have demonstrated your bona fides
on numerous occasions. While we disagree on some issues, the
discussion is on the issue itself and not what you should or should
not be doing in regard to a particular sense of values.

No argument there, Ed.

George Z.

.....To abjectly declare that we are somehow responsible for it and that if
we
simply
understand their pain, join hands and sing Kumbaya together it will all go
away is
foolishness of the highest order.

Again, I'm not the one who may have suggested that we are somehow responsible
for the terrorism inflicted on us so I don't understand why you felt obliged
to
direct that remark to me. IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and
introducing
it into the discussion didn't seem warranted to me

I think you are grossly misinterpreting this "Kumbaya" statement. Most
wouldnt know it is a south african folk song, I sure didnt. It was probably
more illustrative of those peace activist types who have a mindset that we
really can all just get along with terrorists if we are nice to them/peace at
any cost/lets dont make the terrorists mad at us even more.

Its rather silly to call what he said racist, since he was not injecting race
into it in any manner.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

"Ron" wrote in message
...
.....To abjectly declare that we are somehow responsible for it and that if
we
simply
understand their pain, join hands and sing Kumbaya together it will all go
away is
foolishness of the highest order.

Again, I'm not the one who may have suggested that we are somehow responsible
for the terrorism inflicted on us so I don't understand why you felt obliged
to
direct that remark to me. IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and
introducing
it into the discussion didn't seem warranted to me

I think you are grossly misinterpreting this "Kumbaya" statement. Most
wouldnt know it is a south african folk song, I sure didnt. It was probably
more illustrative of those peace activist types who have a mindset that we
really can all just get along with terrorists if we are nice to them/peace at
any cost/lets dont make the terrorists mad at us even more.

Its rather silly to call what he said racist, since he was not injecting race
into it in any manner.

Point taken. Thanks.

George Z.

George came out with:
IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and
introducing

Come on George, "Kumbaya" was learned by more people in the US as a church camp
or peace activist song. Most of us learned it without the racial intent that
you propose. Southern Baptist or Methodist church camps in the 50's would not
allow a black song. I doubt that Ed learned it in a peace demonstration either,
unless he was the guy in back wearing a mask and wig.

Oxmoron1
MFE

"OXMORON1" wrote in message
...
George came out with:
IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and
introducing

Come on George, "Kumbaya" was learned by more people in the US as a church
camp
or peace activist song. Most of us learned it without the racial intent that
you propose. Southern Baptist or Methodist church camps in the 50's would not
allow a black song. I doubt that Ed learned it in a peace demonstration
either,
unless he was the guy in back wearing a mask and wig.

I see your point. I was looking at it from my own vantage point, having first
heard it at a time when apartheid was alive and well in South Africa and when it
represented their black citizens who were struggling for some measure of
equality there at the time. When it was originally introduced into our country,
it was a sort of anthem of South Africa's black "freedom fighters", hence my
equating it with racism. It was not a song of peaceniks at that time.

However, as I said, I see your point and concede that Ed may have used it in the
same context you did.

George Z.

Oxmoron1
MFE

On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:13:58 -0400, George Z. Bush wrote:

When it was originally introduced into our country, it was a sort of
anthem of South Africa's black "freedom fighters", hence my equating it
with racism.

It wasn't introduced into America, it originated here. "Kumbya" is from
the Gullah dialect of South Carolina and means "come by here."

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

Yeff wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:13:58 -0400, George Z. Bush wrote:

When it was originally introduced into our country, it was a sort of
anthem of South Africa's black "freedom fighters", hence my equating it
with racism.

It wasn't introduced into America, it originated here. "Kumbya" is from
the Gullah dialect of South Carolina and means "come by here."

Some people, like you, claim it originated from the Gullah people of South
Carolina, others claim its origin is from Angola and/or Nigeria. I just say
that the first time I heard it, it was introduced as a folk song from South
Africa. I don't know which story is the right one, so you stick to your story
if you want.....I'll stick to mine.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Yeff wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:13:58 -0400, George Z. Bush wrote:

When it was originally introduced into our country, it was a sort of
anthem of South Africa's black "freedom fighters", hence my equating it
with racism.

It wasn't introduced into America, it originated here. "Kumbya" is from
the Gullah dialect of South Carolina and means "come by here."

Some people, like you, claim it originated from the Gullah people of
South
Carolina, others claim its origin is from Angola and/or Nigeria. I just
say
that the first time I heard it, it was introduced as a folk song from
South
Africa. I don't know which story is the right one, so you stick to your
story
if you want.....I'll stick to mine.

Nothing new about you sticking to the wrong story...

"And of course there's kumbayah. According to ethnomusicologist Thomas
Miller, the song we know began as a Gullah spiritual. Some recordings of it
were made in the 1920s, but no doubt it goes back earlier. Published
versions began appearing in the 1930s. It's believed an American missionary
couple taught the song to the locals in Angola, where its origins were
forgotten. The song was then rediscovered in Angola and brought back here in
time for the folksinging revival of the 50s and 60s."

www.straightdope.com/classics/a980911a.html

Also, note that Angola is not South Africa?

Brooks


George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"OXMORON1" wrote in message
...
George came out with:
IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely
know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and
introducing

Come on George, "Kumbaya" was learned by more people in the US as a
church
camp
or peace activist song. Most of us learned it without the racial intent
that
you propose. Southern Baptist or Methodist church camps in the 50's
would not
allow a black song. I doubt that Ed learned it in a peace demonstration
either,
unless he was the guy in back wearing a mask and wig.

I see your point. I was looking at it from my own vantage point, having
first
heard it at a time when apartheid was alive and well in South Africa and
when it
represented their black citizens who were struggling for some measure of
equality there at the time. When it was originally introduced into our
country,
it was a sort of anthem of South Africa's black "freedom fighters", hence
my
equating it with racism. It was not a song of peaceniks at that time.

What? You might want to look into the history of that song a bit more before
you make yourself out to be a larger horse's posterior than you already
have--just about every utterance you have made in regards to that tune has
been demonstrably *wrong*.


However, as I said, I see your point and concede that Ed may have used it
in the
same context you did.

Sounds like you would be about the only fellow using it in any other
context, being as your description of the song's lineage has been apparently
created solely in your own mind. Reference:

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Kumbayah

It is of American origin, and was a common camp song for decades--heck, we
used to sing it on long trips in the car when I was a little brat back in
the early sixties. Where you came up with the idea that "when it was
originally introduced into our country..." etc. is a mystery.

Brooks


George Z.

Oxmoron1
MFE

George Z. Bush wrote:

direct that remark to me. IAC, your use of the "Kumbaya" crack was clearly
racist if unintended, and I thought somewhat beneath you. You surely know
perfectly well that "Kumbaya" is a black South African folk song and introducing
it into the discussion didn't seem warranted to me.

I think you've wandered "off the reservation" again on this (if you'll
excuse the racist idiom).

Perhaps holding hands to sing "Give Peace A Chance", or "Blowin' In
The Wind" might have been better musical selections?


SMH