Slider on a ram air parachute

In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta

On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta

One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?

Cheers

Paul

I don't know why there would be a difference, but I would speculate that
the ram air canopy has a slight advantage since it leaves the container
tightly packed in a deployment bag. The canopy stays pretty much in the
bag until at or near full line extension and, on my rig, the drogue
pulls off the bag and both the drogue and bag are lost. At least that's
what I recall. Maybe some youtube videos could share some light on
that. My rigger also strongly advised that I *NOT* try to catch the
drogue and bag lest I get them caught in the chute. He also advised I
throw away the rip cord immediately after pulling it. Replacements are
less expensive than smacking the ground at high speed...

As to position; leaving the jump plane I was taught to assume a stable
arch before deployment. Hopefully I'll do just that if I have to leave
my glider. Of course if I'm hit in the traffic pattern, it's canopy
off, belts open, jump, pull. No delays...

Hope that helps.

On 6/24/2015 11:39 PM, Paul B wrote:
On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup. I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta
One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?

Cheers

Paul

--
Dan Marotta

Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.

I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement .

Cheers

Paul

Maybe I stated the rip cord thing wrongly. What I meant to say is to
get rid of the rip cord lest it get tangled in the suspension lines.
It's better to toss it away and buy a new one later than to get all
tangled up and die with the rip cord in my hand. Same idea with the
drogue and deployment bag. And yes, in my seven training jumps I think
I had twisted lines 3 or 4 times. We trained for that before the first
jump and it was never an issue. Also, on the day of my first jump, a
girl had a line over malfunction and a spinning chute. She cut away
successfully and landed under her reserve. I won't have a reserve...

An anecdote: At the jump club's annual party they used old round chutes
to jump into a large lake (Elephant Butte Reservoir in southern New
Mexico). It was very enlightening to compare full deployment time for a
round chute to a square chute. The round chutes took noticeably longer
to fully deploy followed by considerable oscillation before
stabilizing. I'm sold on the square chute.

On 6/26/2015 12:40 AM, Paul B wrote:
Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.

I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement .

Cheers

Paul

--
Dan Marotta

Squares are better all around. As Dan notes if pilots observed both types being jumped they'd open their wallets right then and upgrade.
On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe I stated the rip cord thing wrongly.* What I meant to say is
to get rid of the rip cord lest it get tangled in the suspension
lines.* It's better to toss it away and buy a new one later than to
get all tangled up and die with the rip cord in my hand.* Same idea
with the drogue and deployment bag.* And yes, in my seven training
jumps I think I had twisted lines 3 or 4 times.* We trained for that
before the first jump and it was never an issue.* Also, on the day
of my first jump, a girl had a line over malfunction and a spinning
chute.* She cut away successfully and landed under her reserve.* I
won't have a reserve...



An anecdote:* At the jump club's annual party they used old round
chutes to jump into a large lake (Elephant Butte Reservoir in
southern New Mexico).* It was very enlightening to compare full
deployment time for a round chute to a square chute.* The round
chutes took noticeably longer to fully deploy followed by
considerable oscillation before stabilizing.* I'm sold on the square
chute.




On 6/26/2015 12:40 AM, Paul B wrote:



Thanks Dan, I have read somewhere, and I cannot find a reference, that the square canopies were more prone to entanglement, that is all. I am aware of the appropriate position to dsploy in, but as you suggest, this may not be always possible, due to available time, possible panic etc.

I would also disagree with your rigger regarding the ripcord replacement. If you do smack the ground, I do not think you are likely to need a replacement .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta

This really ****es me off! I had been out of soaring for 13 years, just getting back in and purchased a brand new Butler chute for 2,300. Oh, well, hope I never need it anyway!

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 6:16:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Squares are better all around. As Dan notes if pilots observed both types being jumped they'd open their wallets right then and upgrade.
On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: