Midair Warning

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 11:00:12 AM UTC-4, wrote:
There is much more wrong with the Power Flarm comment.
I have Flarm.
Transponder targets do not provide the information that Flarm targets have.
One has to actually visually search for the transponder target.
At the speeds the F-16 was travelling....Flarm is iffy.

"Under 10,000ft, under 250kts", granted, that's still ~450'/second if you're not moving, even more if you're head on.
I would guess the jet was even slower than 250kts "in the pattern".

While I agree that we should try to learn from this accident, sometimes "crap happens" regardless of how many "roadblocks to crap" we throw up.

"Under 10,000ft, under 250kts"

Unless the aircraft flight manual states otherwise. I think the F-16
flies 300 KIAS in the traffic pattern. Any Viper drivers out there to
chime in?

On 7/11/2015 11:36 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 11:00:12 AM UTC-4, wrote:
There is much more wrong with the Power Flarm comment.
I have Flarm.
Transponder targets do not provide the information that Flarm targets have.
One has to actually visually search for the transponder target.
At the speeds the F-16 was travelling....Flarm is iffy.
"Under 10,000ft, under 250kts", granted, that's still ~450'/second if you're not moving, even more if you're head on.
I would guess the jet was even slower than 250kts "in the pattern".

While I agree that we should try to learn from this accident, sometimes "crap happens" regardless of how many "roadblocks to crap" we throw up.

--
Dan Marotta

Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 6:20:55 PM UTC-7, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.

I'm not sure why we are talking pattern numbers, this mid-air collision was not near the pattern at KCHS, it occurred outside KCHS Class C airspace. And whether the F-16 was actually flying an instrument procedures at the time, actually under approach radar control, etc. at the actual time of the accident is not clear AFAIK (the flight mission was apparently to practice instrument approaches, it does not mean the pilot was doing that at the time of the mid-air, but could have been... that area is part of instrument approaches into KCHS).

For some (better than usual "journalism", but it still has problems) coverage of this see James Fallows article... http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...he-sky/397880/

As clarified there, and by the USAF in other news coverage, the F-16C was out of Shaw AFB en-route to KCHS and it sounds like had not actually yet got to KCHS/executed an instrument approach--but I may be reading too much into that.

I'm not sure why Fallows thinks this collision might have happened in an MOA, local news sources describe the mid-air as happening over Lewisfield Plantation in Moncks Corner, SC, which is approximately 33°9′36″N 79°59′37″W, something like 20 nautical miles outside the GAMECOCK MOA, and quite close to Berkeley County Airport (KMKS) where the Cessna 150 had apparently departed.

FWIW, Class C airspace has a 20nm uncharted procedural outer area, which means that they have approach radar to 20 miles, and hat would include the point where the mid air occurred. --bob

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 7:51:02 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
FWIW, Class C airspace has a 20nm uncharted procedural outer area, which means that they have approach radar to 20 miles, and hat would include the point where the mid air occurred. --bob

Yes, if he was in fact doing an approach at the time... which it seem fair to assume, and you would hope he would be talking to approach even if not, but who knows, the radar and audio tapes should really help solve this one quickly. Even a good idea of the altitude of the mid-air would answer a lot of the possible scenario questions I have.

if he was in fact doing an approach at the time

the RADAR works whether you're on approach or not

You're talking final approach and it's probably a bit more than that.
I'm talking vectors or own navigation to a fix outside the IAF/FAF.

On 7/11/2015 7:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.


--
Dan Marotta