Midair Warning

Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 6:20:55 PM UTC-7, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.

I'm not sure why we are talking pattern numbers, this mid-air collision was not near the pattern at KCHS, it occurred outside KCHS Class C airspace. And whether the F-16 was actually flying an instrument procedures at the time, actually under approach radar control, etc. at the actual time of the accident is not clear AFAIK (the flight mission was apparently to practice instrument approaches, it does not mean the pilot was doing that at the time of the mid-air, but could have been... that area is part of instrument approaches into KCHS).

For some (better than usual "journalism", but it still has problems) coverage of this see James Fallows article... http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...he-sky/397880/

As clarified there, and by the USAF in other news coverage, the F-16C was out of Shaw AFB en-route to KCHS and it sounds like had not actually yet got to KCHS/executed an instrument approach--but I may be reading too much into that.

I'm not sure why Fallows thinks this collision might have happened in an MOA, local news sources describe the mid-air as happening over Lewisfield Plantation in Moncks Corner, SC, which is approximately 33°9′36″N 79°59′37″W, something like 20 nautical miles outside the GAMECOCK MOA, and quite close to Berkeley County Airport (KMKS) where the Cessna 150 had apparently departed.

FWIW, Class C airspace has a 20nm uncharted procedural outer area, which means that they have approach radar to 20 miles, and hat would include the point where the mid air occurred. --bob

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 7:51:02 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
FWIW, Class C airspace has a 20nm uncharted procedural outer area, which means that they have approach radar to 20 miles, and hat would include the point where the mid air occurred. --bob

Yes, if he was in fact doing an approach at the time... which it seem fair to assume, and you would hope he would be talking to approach even if not, but who knows, the radar and audio tapes should really help solve this one quickly. Even a good idea of the altitude of the mid-air would answer a lot of the possible scenario questions I have.

if he was in fact doing an approach at the time

the RADAR works whether you're on approach or not

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 8:39:21 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
if he was in fact doing an approach at the time

the RADAR works whether you're on approach or not

I do know how RADAR works, in lots more detail than we need to get into here. But SSR surveillance only "works" in any useful collision avoidance sense if:

1. The transponders in both aircraft are on and operating correctly, (I'll skip for now any discussion about the KCHS Approach ASR-8(?) primary radar limitations/performance issues)
2. The aircraft are at a suitable height (and location) for SSR coverage for that ATC facility
3. One or both pilots are talking to approach/ATC
4. Approach/ATC provides them with some traffic warning/separation instructions, and
5. The pilot(s) are able to use that warning/instructions to avoid each other

Which is why there are lots of relevant questions about what exactly was happening, which AFAIK at the moment can only be guessed at, including.... Was the F-16 flying an approach or otherwise talking to KCHS Approach (and on VHF/UHF?)? Was the F-16 actually in IMC? Just exiting IMC? Was the Cessna 150 on flight following/talking to KCHS Approach (on the same frequency so they could hear the F-16?)? What altitude did the collision happen at? When/did the F-16 hand off from Shaw RAPCON to KCHS Approach? Were both transponders and encoders actually working correctly? What traffic warning/separation did Approach provide if anything? What were the pilots reactions to any warning? etc., etc., etc.

Ah, yes, limitations...

I once almost swapped paint with an Army OV-10 at about 6,000' above
Eielson AFB, AK. He was inbound to Ft. Wainwright AAF, about 25 miles
away. I was talking to tower on a simulated flameout approach. I'm
pretty certain he was talking to Fairbanks Approach. Draw your own
conclusions.

And what's all this got to do with soaring? It's not winter. :-D

On 7/11/2015 10:23 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 8:39:21 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
if he was in fact doing an approach at the time
the RADAR works whether you're on approach or not
I do know how RADAR works, in lots more detail than we need to get into here. But SSR surveillance only "works" in any useful collision avoidance sense if:

1. The transponders in both aircraft are on and operating correctly, (I'll skip for now any discussion about the KCHS Approach ASR-8(?) primary radar limitations/performance issues)
2. The aircraft are at a suitable height (and location) for SSR coverage for that ATC facility
3. One or both pilots are talking to approach/ATC
4. Approach/ATC provides them with some traffic warning/separation instructions, and
5. The pilot(s) are able to use that warning/instructions to avoid each other

Which is why there are lots of relevant questions about what exactly was happening, which AFAIK at the moment can only be guessed at, including.... Was the F-16 flying an approach or otherwise talking to KCHS Approach (and on VHF/UHF?)? Was the F-16 actually in IMC? Just exiting IMC? Was the Cessna 150 on flight following/talking to KCHS Approach (on the same frequency so they could hear the F-16?)? What altitude did the collision happen at? When/did the F-16 hand off from Shaw RAPCON to KCHS Approach? Were both transponders and encoders actually working correctly? What traffic warning/separation did Approach provide if anything? What were the pilots reactions to any warning? etc., etc., etc.

--
Dan Marotta

You're talking final approach and it's probably a bit more than that.
I'm talking vectors or own navigation to a fix outside the IAF/FAF.

On 7/11/2015 7:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Having watched and flown with F-16s in a pattern, I would guess that they're more like 120 in the pattern.


--
Dan Marotta