FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more. Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

This is, indeed, amazing that folks are considering the "risk" of leeching more significant than the risk of collision. Sound like paranoia to me.

Ramy

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 2:17:35 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
This is, indeed, amazing that folks are considering the "risk" of leeching more significant than the risk of collision. Sound like paranoia to me.

Ramy

The genesis of trying the FLARM in stealth mode was when I was flying at the PAGC. Let me first say the PAGC was a very good event and Sarah and crew did an outstanding job. The idea was to use the FAI rules in a contest here in the US. The contest was a success and I like the FAI rules, generally.

There the US Team used team flying and all the FLARM capability we could get together. Poor Jerzey couldn't get away from the pack to do his own thing because he was tagged and followed from the start. It was also sad to see our top guys resort to following someone else rather than doing something brilliant on their own. The results were homogenized. Again, not as fun... I hope the FAI will continue with the movement afoot to go a stealth mode of some sort.

I congratulate the pilots at the 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill. There were no instances of poor, heads down thermalling that I heard of. FLARM warnings were quite adequate combined eyes-out awareness. The big FLARM debate never materialized at the contest. Everyone seemed content using stealth mode.

The same goes for the finish gate. None of the pilots went crazy with it. I don't remember any showy airshow stuff or iffy landing patterns. It really was no big deal and was more fun for everyone.

Thanks to those who came. Thanks for the sportsmanship and the safe flying. I wish more of you were there.

XC

Hmmm, personally, I never saw much of Jerzy at the PAGC. He usually (wisely) started behind, etc. I am shocked to hear that "FLARM marking" Jerzy was the U.S. team strategy. It certainly wasn't mine.. I (and my team-mate) must have missed that memo. Again, the capability of FLARM "leeching" is being greatly overrated here. It's not a major factor, it just isn't. I wish to debate this as needed.

I strongly suggest that people considering the opinions here replay the flight traces from (for example) the PAGC event for themselves and pay particular attention to the behavior of certain pilots with reference to certain other pilots. The conditions at the PAGC were quite weak (unfortunately) and little tactical flexibility was available to rapidly modify tactics based on a FLARM hit. It was my experience that you had to fly your own air as much as possible and survive as long as you could. If you were with a gaggle it was not because you used FLARM to catch it.

And, FWIW, good luck to anybody who wants to try and stay with Jerzy (or DJ, KM, P7 etc) simply by watching your FLARM screen. It's not going to happen. You may benefit slightly once in awhile but your not going to beat these pilots simply by following them via FLARM data. They will leave you behind in a big hurry.

Ban FLARM or go to Stealth mode, etc. IMO it's not going to make a big (or small) difference. So little that it's irrelevant. I feel the issue is being overblown here.

I thought the 15m class on day 3 at PAGC was a little bit over the top when it came to using FLARM. By that I mean it brought several guys together pre-start and kept them together for very similar flights and scores. Check it out.

I enjoyed the contest very much. The team flying thing was fun but probably would be an entry barrier to new guys if it were the norm for our regionals and nationals.

XC

When first using FLARM about 10 years ago, I don't remember anybody whinging about being unable to use FLARM for tactical advantage in contests. Those contests were FLARM mandatory.
Not competing, but worked at two 60-glider contests around then. The only complaints were due to people running an old software version, ie 2.x instead of 3.x. This was easily fixed.

Somehow I don't see that mandating FLARM and in stealth mode at contests is a barrier to contest entry. Rentals are inexpensive! From williamssoaring.com:

PowerFLARM Rental Units Now Available in the USA $50 per Contest ($100 if you have previously participated in the rental program)
Glider and tow-plane pilots can rent a PowerFLARM unit for $50 per contest or similar event. The $50 includes postage and return postage.

By not using "the dark side" of the instrument, there is nothing for a first-time renter to learn about tactical use, so the pilot is not at a tactical disadvantage or heads down trying to figure it out.
Jim

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:00:42 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

It's tempting to start name calling here. I think you ought to retract that statement.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:00:42 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more. Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

I would respond that my sense, and that of quite a number of others, is that Flarm, in Stealth mode, provided sense that we had the increased safety margin that Flarm technology offers without the possible negative affects of heads down tactical activity and had not meaningful affect on the race.
I do not think safety was compromised. As F1 said above, one might make a case for slightly more useful range, but that is a matter of opinion.
I thought it gave what we hoped for, without negative consequences.
UH

On 8/6/2015 11:00 PM, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode
for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed
the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a
collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I
found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or
approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more.
Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other
contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did
not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the
stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of
the competitors.

Richard


As someone without a horse in this race (no PFlarm/interest in flying
competitions), it has more than once occurred to me while "listening" to these
sorts of (very interesting) discussions that PFlarm is a classic example of
better being the enemy of good enough, where good enough is glider-to-glider
(or even GA-to-glider, if adopted by GA) collision avoidance assistance, while
better is any real-or-perceived technical capability processed through humans'
"What if?" filters.

As for Richard's closing observation, that to me seems pretty strongly toward
relatively inaccurate gross oversimplification, doing little (nothing?) to
further the discussion while having significant potential of encouraging flame
warring. Have you anything new to add to the discussion on your thinking
regarding exactly how glider-to-glider safety is degraded through use of
stealth mode as it's been described throughout the years on RAS?

Respectfully,
Bob W.

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:00:42 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more. Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

you require powerflarm, then 3-4 of the people who participated safely would have had to sit out because they couldn't afford the damn thing. and that usually pertains to young competitors.

i'm not saying people are infallible to having a midair by simply keeping out a watchful eye, but the risk can certainly be effectively mitigated if everyone is looking vigilantly, and since we are all flying VFR, I don't care if you have flarm, or a transponder or god knows what, you've got to be looking. the organizers were not more concerned about leeching than safety. that's a silly presumption. the flarm in stealth mode still provides warning of impending collisions. it was an experiment, which XC talks about based on the experiences people had at PAGC.