FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

This extremely interesting thread started out focusing on using Stealth mode at a US Nationals contest, resulting from a feeling that Flarm was being used as a tactical device during a contest conducted under FAI rules (rules which we know encourage gaggling). During the discussion others stated their belief that non-Stealth Flarm was unsafe because it resulted in too much head down time, and several (tongue-in-cheek?) software specifications were given to improve non-Stealth Flarm leeching. The use of Flarm as a good situational awareness tool (suggested by some) seemed to be discounted because of claims of leeching.

But no solid evidence was presented that leeching really is a problem in US contests. Andy (9B) did an analysis which showed that the use of Flarm in Stealth mode resulted in worse contest finish performance by top pilots than they achieved when using non-Stealth Flarm. However, case for the use of Flarm for being used for leeching was only made anecdotally (at best) by others.

Before changes are made to the US rules regarding Flarm usage, I think it should be determined if leeching is really happening in US contests. This should be possible to determine by (1) defining quantitatively what leeching is, and (2) examining contest log files for instances meeting the definition.

A major hurdle, of course, is the definition of leeching. It's clear you're leeching if you follow someone within a mile of their tail all around the task. But, if KS passes me and I follow him 5 minutes to the next thermal where I lose him, is that leeching? How about if I happen to use 4 out of the 12 thermals he's used in a TAT, but our courses are different? What if all the thermals I use were also used by different top pilots in different classes within a few minutes of me arriving?

If leeching can only be defined by "I'll know it when I see it", then perhaps an adaptation of OLC's MeetingPoints function might help point out places to examine manually to see if leeching is occurring. But one way or another, looking for instances of leeching really should be done to determine if we really have a problem, before we go further on deciding what to do with Flarm in contests.

-John, Q3

Don't want to get off topic - as a beginner in the Sport of Sailplane contests, but a veteran of competitive sports - this whole "Leeching" thing - such a ugly word.

So if one of the best pilots as described above (KS) passes me and I try to stay with him - that's a bad thing?? (as if I could). Wow, there are allot of sports with leeches, running, car racing, sailboats racing...... as a matter of fact it is hard to think of one that you do and don't try to follow the best person.

FLARM on the other hand - I can under stand that when a glider gets so far away that you can't see them - and this technology allows you to do what your eyes can not - that seems to me to be unfair and unwanted. Especially since vision (both eyesight and the ability to interpret what we see) is a important aspect of our sport.

I chatted with some experienced guys - they all seem to agree - have a Flarm and set it to 50 miles so you know where everyone is........ works well to make you go faster, but is wrong. and I thought when I bought my Flarm it was to keep from bumping into other gliders and to avoid them bumping into me - I do not need to see gliders much further than a mile or two or three to accomplish that.

Stealth seemed to make sense in a contest - just like not allowing your crew to look at SPOT and call you to tell you which way to go.

I hope I am not a future "Leecher" but man if I can stay with Karl someday , now that would be impressive

WH

Staying with a top pilot is a SKILL. It is not the skill of gliding well
but it is a skill nevertheless. I know of real experts in this. Flarm radar
undermines this skill so that we can all do it!

Do we want our sport to be about flying tactics or flying skill. Seems to
me that we should protect the latter whenever we can.

Jim

It's OK to fly with top pilots on a task. When it's your turn to lead out (you're on top of the gaggle or you're on the same level and the other pilot has led out a couple of times), go. If you don't, you're a leech.

If you see other gliders up ahead (i.e., markers) and pick the best gaggle, take advantage of the few circles they wasted coring it to roll in underneath and gain a little ground trying to repeat the process and leapfrog a stack or two, you're opportunistic, not a leech. And maybe a daily winner, although eventually you'll end up having to find thermals yourself. And you better hope that your late start doesn't leave you floundering out on course when the day dies early and the first starters are gleefully announcing their finishes (note: switch off radio at the first hint).

Are you willing to leave early, alone, convinced it's the best chance to get around the course at good speed before the day dies early? Stop reading right now; your only anxiety should be whether the two pilots who started just behind you are leeches or if they'll contribute to getting around the course.

If you're flying with other pilots and constantly evaluating whether they're making the right decisions and willing to go your own way, you're not leeching. You may share the same thermals, but the minute one of you thinks you have a better idea, he or she is gone, perhaps pursued by the other pilot(s).

If you're trailing another pilot and he/she suddenly disappears (FLARM fails you, you're heads down, the mother ship reels him/her in), do you panic because you have no idea what to do next? (don a scarlet "L") Or do you push on, regretting the loss of the company, especially if it's blue, but not dismayed. (independent)

Pre GPS, the acid test was: if you lose your "tow", do you even know where you are? Leeching can be hard work and they often weren't able to navigate and fly at the same time. GPS was the first gift to leeches. FLARM is the second.

When you leave a thermal, do several of you spread out horizontally convinced that you know better than the others where the good air is? Do you take advantage of numbers in the blue to sample more air, then converge on the happy pilot who finds a good thermal--which sometimes is you? Not a leech. Or is your biggest fear the whole day that you'll lose the pilot(s) ahead of you and be left alone? If you have to ask....

Do you fly along with a top pilot for a few thermals just to see what it is that he/she does differently in the vain hope that you can do it, too? Not a leech. Is your best skill determining whom to follow each day, determined to ride around in his/her wake? You could give lessons to aspiring leeches.

Do you stop and circle every time a top pilot does, whether it's 1 kt. or 6 kt., and have no idea why? Do you linger at the top long after the climb rate has fallen off because the guy you're with is slightly below you? Shame on you!

From an analytical perspective, there are few single actions that define leeching. Externally it's patterns of behavior over time. Internally, it's the way someone thinks.

If you're concerned about being a leech, you probably aren't. If one person has ever made a comment that implies you might not be flying independently enough, you probably are even if you're in denial.

Fear not, it's possible to graduate out of the leech ranks. If your average placings plummet, it confirms the diagnosis. If you start winning contests, you were a good, if annoying, student.

Yes, leeching is a skill. So is robbing banks.

Good luck and have fun. It's a great sport despite the quibbling about the rules.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

JB,

Interesting response, thanks. If I understand correctly, you're saying if you fly your ship according to decisions you yourself make, you're not a leech.

But your second example confuses me, especially in the context of this thread. You say "If you see other gliders up ahead (i.e., markers) and pick the best gaggle, take advantage of the few circles they wasted coring it to roll in underneath and gain a little ground trying to repeat the process and leapfrog a stack or two, you're opportunistic, not a leech." But if I interpret others on this thread correctly, they're saying if you use Flarm to do that instead of using your eye, then you ARE a leech.

Can you help me understand the difference?

-John, Q3

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:58:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
It's OK to fly with top pilots on a task. When it's your turn to lead out (you're on top of the gaggle or you're on the same level and the other pilot has led out a couple of times), go. If you don't, you're a leech.

If you see other gliders up ahead (i.e., markers) and pick the best gaggle, take advantage of the few circles they wasted coring it to roll in underneath and gain a little ground trying to repeat the process and leapfrog a stack or two, you're opportunistic, not a leech. And maybe a daily winner, although eventually you'll end up having to find thermals yourself. And you better hope that your late start doesn't leave you floundering out on course when the day dies early and the first starters are gleefully announcing their finishes (note: switch off radio at the first hint).

Are you willing to leave early, alone, convinced it's the best chance to get around the course at good speed before the day dies early? Stop reading right now; your only anxiety should be whether the two pilots who started just behind you are leeches or if they'll contribute to getting around the course.

If you're flying with other pilots and constantly evaluating whether they're making the right decisions and willing to go your own way, you're not leeching. You may share the same thermals, but the minute one of you thinks you have a better idea, he or she is gone, perhaps pursued by the other pilot(s).

If you're trailing another pilot and he/she suddenly disappears (FLARM fails you, you're heads down, the mother ship reels him/her in), do you panic because you have no idea what to do next? (don a scarlet "L") Or do you push on, regretting the loss of the company, especially if it's blue, but not dismayed. (independent)

Pre GPS, the acid test was: if you lose your "tow", do you even know where you are? Leeching can be hard work and they often weren't able to navigate and fly at the same time. GPS was the first gift to leeches. FLARM is the second.

When you leave a thermal, do several of you spread out horizontally convinced that you know better than the others where the good air is? Do you take advantage of numbers in the blue to sample more air, then converge on the happy pilot who finds a good thermal--which sometimes is you? Not a leech. Or is your biggest fear the whole day that you'll lose the pilot(s) ahead of you and be left alone? If you have to ask....

Do you fly along with a top pilot for a few thermals just to see what it is that he/she does differently in the vain hope that you can do it, too? Not a leech. Is your best skill determining whom to follow each day, determined to ride around in his/her wake? You could give lessons to aspiring leeches.

Do you stop and circle every time a top pilot does, whether it's 1 kt. or 6 kt., and have no idea why? Do you linger at the top long after the climb rate has fallen off because the guy you're with is slightly below you? Shame on you!

From an analytical perspective, there are few single actions that define leeching. Externally it's patterns of behavior over time. Internally, it's the way someone thinks.

If you're concerned about being a leech, you probably aren't. If one person has ever made a comment that implies you might not be flying independently enough, you probably are even if you're in denial.

Fear not, it's possible to graduate out of the leech ranks. If your average placings plummet, it confirms the diagnosis. If you start winning contests, you were a good, if annoying, student.

Yes, leeching is a skill. So is robbing banks.

Good luck and have fun. It's a great sport despite the quibbling about the rules.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Good question. Someone can leech more easily with FLARM in non-stealth mode.. Someone else who's making their own decisions can also use gaggles/markers more easily. Periodically we have to address the role we want technology to play in changing the nature of soaring competition. Anything that makes soaring easier--from GPS to longer-range FLARM to onboard satellite maps to remote thermal sensing--will provoke discussion. I don't think there's a magic answer or rule that can be applied universally.

In this case, unrestricted FLARM makes it easier to leech without adding much in the way of safety over stealth-mode FLARM. So my view is why let technology encourage behavior that we've thought less than desirable for decades? But it is just my view.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 3:11:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Good question. Someone can leech more easily with FLARM in non-stealth mode. Someone else who's making their own decisions can also use gaggles/markers more easily. Periodically we have to address the role we want technology to play in changing the nature of soaring competition. Anything that makes soaring easier--from GPS to longer-range FLARM to onboard satellite maps to remote thermal sensing--will provoke discussion. I don't think there's a magic answer or rule that can be applied universally.

In this case, unrestricted FLARM makes it easier to leech without adding much in the way of safety over stealth-mode FLARM. So my view is why let technology encourage behavior that we've thought less than desirable for decades? But it is just my view.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

MInor note: It has always been possible and allowed to put yourself in stealth mode. If you don't want people leeching off you, put yourself in stealth mode and go for it.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 2:51:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I chatted with some experienced guys - they all seem to agree -
have a Flarm and set it to 50 miles so you know where everyone is........

FLARM does not have anywhere near 50 mile range.
Perhaps the "experts" you've been talking to, well, aren't...

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 4:54:43 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 2:51:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I chatted with some experienced guys - they all seem to agree -
have a Flarm and set it to 50 miles so you know where everyone is........

FLARM does not have anywhere near 50 mile range.
Perhaps the "experts" you've been talking to, well, aren't...

Maybe overstating, which is obvious. Substitute "max available range" if it makes your anal self feel better.
He makes his point with respect to his philosophy.

UH

At 20:54 14 August 2015, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 2:51:19 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
I chatted with some experienced guys - they all seem to agree -
have a Flarm and set it to 50 miles so you know where everyone
is........



If FLARM did have 50 mile range this could tell you a lot
about the conditions ahead. As a thermal finder pretty
useless at that range.

I went to a talk by Erazem of LXNAV in March. He said
that LXNAV are looking to include live data to and from
the cloud during flight in order to provide the pilot with
this information. We shall have to ban or nobble the LX9000
when that happens!

Jim