SSA responds to ANPRM

JS wrote:
Steve, this brings us back an old question:
Can one of the required devices be swapped back and forth between aircraft?
Something like one Trig TXP with separate wiring harnesses, mounting
trays and display heads in each glider. Or whatever the TABS devices end up being.
The TXP would likely require calibration every two years in each aircraft.
Does anyone make a transponder out of velcro?
Jim

That is one of the questions. The TABS TSO does not exclude that, and some
of the thought possibility that lead to TABS were certainly for small
devices. The question will be what the install/carriage regulations will
look like. There might be concern with reliability of making connections to
antennas and static pressure sensors.... my expectation is this is all too
hard and likely won't be supported by install regulations but who knows. I
am more hoping that any TABS install regulations if they end up existing at
all are simple enough to allow low-cost fixed installs in certified
gliders. Maybe as easy as a Transponder today, but they have to be much
much easier than early ADS-B installs (which required STCs).

I have been slogging through the some
220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea
mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition
=attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that
gliders are detectable by an aircraft
equipped with a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system (TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from
air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of
the ANPRM private jet owners able to
afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before
installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B,
anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles
away and can avoid.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some
220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea
mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition
=attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that
gliders are detectable by an aircraft
equipped with a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system (TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from
air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of
the ANPRM private jet owners able to
afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before
installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B,
anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles
away and can avoid.

This can not be further from the truth! Is NTSB really that clueless? Are they assuming that air carriers are immediately in class A when outside of class B/C, or do they assume that gliders only fly in patterns around small airports outside class B/C? Anyone who is flying in Reno area, Las Vegas area, in the Bay Area and any other soaring area within 50 miles of a major airport knows that we sharing the same airspace with airliners, including inside Mode C veil!

Ramy

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 10:07:01 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some
220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea
mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition
=attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that
gliders are detectable by an aircraft
equipped with a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system (TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from
air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of
the ANPRM private jet owners able to
afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before
installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B,
anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles
away and can avoid.

This can not be further from the truth! Is NTSB really that clueless? Are they assuming that air carriers are immediately in class A when outside of class B/C, or do they assume that gliders only fly in patterns around small airports outside class B/C? Anyone who is flying in Reno area, Las Vegas area, in the Bay Area and any other soaring area within 50 miles of a major airport knows that we sharing the same airspace with airliners, including inside Mode C veil!

Ramy

Ramy - the NTSB only said the part in the quotes, the rest of it was the opinion (or mistake) of the poster.

Oops, don't know how I missed the end of the quote. It didn't make sense to me that the NTSB will be so clueless. I am amazed that some glider pilots believe we

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some
220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea
mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition
=attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that
gliders are detectable by an aircraft
equipped with a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system (TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from
air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of
the ANPRM private jet owners able to
afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before
installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B,
anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles
away and can avoid.

At least some air carriers are not transmitting ADS-B as of this writing. Southwest for example - none of their jets flying into and out of Reno show up on PowerFlarm. Biz jets seem to have a higher install rate than airlines.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:45:18 -0700, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some 220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition =attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that gliders are detectable by an
aircraft equipped with a traffic alert and collision avoidance system
(TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of the ANPRM private jet owners
able to afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B, anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles away and can avoid.

At least some air carriers are not transmitting ADS-B as of this
writing. Southwest for example - none of their jets flying into and out
of Reno show up on PowerFlarm. Biz jets seem to have a higher install
rate than airlines.

So SouthWest isn't using their transponders these days?? Hope you report
that to FAA.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 4:44:32 PM UTC+3, David Kinsell wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 22:45:18 -0700, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some 220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition =attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that gliders are detectable by an
aircraft equipped with a traffic alert and collision avoidance system
(TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of the ANPRM private jet owners
able to afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B, anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles away and can avoid.

At least some air carriers are not transmitting ADS-B as of this
writing. Southwest for example - none of their jets flying into and out
of Reno show up on PowerFlarm. Biz jets seem to have a higher install
rate than airlines.

So SouthWest isn't using their transponders these days?? Hope you report
that to FAA.

They of course have transponders, but only the most recent models of 737 have ADS-B.

Southwest still have quite a lot of -300 and -500 models which I believe will never be fitted with ADS-B. They will be retired by 2020.

The -700 and -800 models will be retrofitted with ADS-B by 2020. Some may have come with it from the factory (-800s?).

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 03:32:29 +0000, George Haeh wrote:

I have been slogging through the some 220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition =attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that gliders are detectable by an
aircraft equipped with a traffic alert and collision avoidance system
(TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from air carriers by Class B and C.

That makes the primary beneficiaries of the ANPRM private jet owners
able to afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before installation.

As long as they're transmitting ADS-B, anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles away and can avoid.

You took that one sentence well out of context. With the advent of ADS-
B, the NTSB now believes gliders should also lose their ADS-B exemption.
ADS-B In capability is a whole lot cheaper than TCAS, and will be much
more widely deployed.

As I keep saying, this ANPRM isn't about transponders, it's about
transponders and ADS-B, as should be obvious from the survey questions
they asked. I believe FAA has decided to suck gliders into NextGen, and
are using the (extremely late) letters from Reid and Amodei as
justification. I'm generally in favor of that in principle, but hope we
can get regulations that make it more practical given the constraints of
gliders.

-Dave

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 8:45:12 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
I have been slogging through the some
220 responses and came across a
response from the NTSB:

http://www.regulations.gov/contentStrea
mer?documentId=FAA-2015-2147-
0137&attachmentNumber=1&disposition
=attachment&contentType=pdf

"our main concern was to ensure that
gliders are detectable by an aircraft
equipped with a traffic alert and collision
avoidance system (TCAS)"

Gliders are already kept well away from
air carriers by Class B and C.

That is serious misunderstanding of how controlled airspace works.

Scheduled airline traffic for example flies in Class A, B, C, D and E airspace in the USA. Class E airspace in particular is a concern with gliders and airliners near some busy traffic areas. For example in the Reno Area you have Airliners fling approaches into Reno sharing airspace with glider traffic in the Carson Valley. It is interesting to look down from a glider and see multiple B737s on approach to Reno. That is why pilot education, voluntary carriage of transponders, established gliders procedures with ATC, etc. are so important there. And many owners/pilots, clubs, FBOs, organizations like PASCO have down great work to support that. And why when incidents like airliners getting anywhere near close to a glider gets a lot of attention. And while the Reno area may be the poster-child for airliner-glider saftey concerns in the USA that situation is far from limited to the Reno Area.


That makes the primary beneficiaries of
the ANPRM private jet owners able to
afford TCAS - $30K to $200K before
installation.

There are many valuable inputs that people can and should be making about this ANPRM and related concerns, from all possible points of view, but stating inflammatory opinions like this that are based on such obvious misunderstands is not likely to do anybody any good.


As long as they're transmitting ADS-B,
anybody with PowerFLARM knows
exactly where they are from several miles
away and can avoid.

PowerFLARM ADS-B In is a helpful feature, but when it comes to high-speed threats like fast jets and airliners (especially above 250 knots above 10,000') the usefulness may be more for educating PowerFLARM users about where that traffic generally is and to avoid that entire area if possible.. or to help convince those owners/pilots to get a transponder.. which has happened in a few cases I know. I'm not so convinced it's that useful for a glider pilot reliably avoiding ADS-B Out equipped high-speed jet or airliner that does not know the glider is there. For that it seems making the glider visible to TCAS in the high speed jet or airliner is much more useful approach.