How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience (and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.

CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope from the airport influence their students.

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Train CFI-Gs in XC, and train CFI-Gs how to develop those skills in students.

On 8/18/2015 6:21 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm forever indebted to the CFI-Gs who proved that with enough patience
(and $s) almost anyone can learn to fly a glider.

CFI-Gs who don't have the skills or ambition to go farther than glide slope
from the airport influence their students.

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots
gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get
off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

Not to be too anal about this particular situation, but for that particular
instructor's (I infer) lack of landout-related skills, I'd agree that putting
him/herself in a landout situation *would* be dumb. The trick for listeners is
to be sufficiently knowledgeable so's to understand said instructor's hidden
assumptions (non-antagonistic conversation helpful?), and thus, to be able to
intelligently decide if they apply to the listener. If they don't, there's
plenty of available evidence that "all over the board" opinions about the
wisdom of XC & landouts exist in every little bit of the U.S. clubs' soaring
world to which I've ever been exposed. Entirely normal human behavior.

FWIW, so far as I know, I was the first tyro licensee to make a landout in my
first club's recent history...adequately and safely taught by an instructor,
as I subsequently learned while retrieving him from a landout, who'd yet to
make *his* first landout. The club back then had plenty of flagpole sitters,
and a few seriously-beyond-my-newbie-skill-set ridge runners. (My flight
examiner then held the world O&R record.) It was clear to me that each pilot
chose his/her level of soaring participation, and such an approach seemed
entirely normal to me; still does.

Point being, circling back to your instructor's picnic table expounding, in
the absence of some sort of enlightening conversation actually discussing
*why* an instructor feels as they expound, why would Joe Listener want to take
any of their opinions beyond those directly applying to J.L.'s growing skills,
as universal gospel? Looking back, for me it was dirt simple to distinguish
beyond instruction likely to be directly applicable to my next instructional
flight, and my instructor's opining about "the more-distant future's"
requisite, or merely desirable, skills. Even though I was convinced he could
walk on water...

Bob - genuinely curious - W.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:21:16 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I have a number of times had tow pilots approach me after I landed from a multi-hour flight and ask why I got off at 800 ft or 1000 ft above launch height. Was there something wrong with the tow? No -- we flew through a big fat thermal!

I'm actually amazed, when I fly with other pilots, how many carry on through juicy thermals to the launch height they already had in their heads.

If you're flying along and suddenly the towplane shoots up above you, start counting. If the vario is now reading 10 (5 for euros) and you've counted past ten before the townplane suddenly drops away below you then just release and turn back hard.

Of course, there's increased risk of it not really working and landing back for a relight. But I can't actually think of a time when it happened to me on a day when others were successfully soaring.

One of the closest was when I was visiting the US and found a club near Joliet IL. Jumped in a Duo (a type I hadn't flown before, though I knew the Janus pretty well) with an instructor and surprised the heck out of him by releasing at 700 ft AGL. It very nearly didn't work, with about 15 min of scratching at around launch height. But then I got away to 4000 ft and we went on a nice tour of the area. (there was never any question of not being able to make it back, of course)

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 4:12:43 AM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:21:16 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I have a number of times had tow pilots approach me after I landed from a multi-hour flight and ask why I got off at 800 ft or 1000 ft above launch height. Was there something wrong with the tow? No -- we flew through a big fat thermal!

I'm actually amazed, when I fly with other pilots, how many carry on through juicy thermals to the launch height they already had in their heads.

If you're flying along and suddenly the towplane shoots up above you, start counting. If the vario is now reading 10 (5 for euros) and you've counted past ten before the townplane suddenly drops away below you then just release and turn back hard.

Of course, there's increased risk of it not really working and landing back for a relight. But I can't actually think of a time when it happened to me on a day when others were successfully soaring.

One of the closest was when I was visiting the US and found a club near Joliet IL. Jumped in a Duo (a type I hadn't flown before, though I knew the Janus pretty well) with an instructor and surprised the heck out of him by releasing at 700 ft AGL. It very nearly didn't work, with about 15 min of scratching at around launch height. But then I got away to 4000 ft and we went on a nice tour of the area. (there was never any question of not being able to make it back, of course)

Bruce,
Thanks for mentioning our Chicago Glider Club near Joliet IL - and your flight in our Duo. I practice what you are preaching all the time and our tow-pilots sometimes ask the "what was wrong" question if I stay on tow all the way up to 2,000'. But then, I was trained on a winch back in Germany, we were lucky to get 1,500'.
Herb

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 4:26:57 PM UTC+3, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 4:12:43 AM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:21:16 AM UTC+3, son_of_flubber wrote:
A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I have a number of times had tow pilots approach me after I landed from a multi-hour flight and ask why I got off at 800 ft or 1000 ft above launch height. Was there something wrong with the tow? No -- we flew through a big fat thermal!

I'm actually amazed, when I fly with other pilots, how many carry on through juicy thermals to the launch height they already had in their heads.

If you're flying along and suddenly the towplane shoots up above you, start counting. If the vario is now reading 10 (5 for euros) and you've counted past ten before the townplane suddenly drops away below you then just release and turn back hard.

Of course, there's increased risk of it not really working and landing back for a relight. But I can't actually think of a time when it happened to me on a day when others were successfully soaring.

One of the closest was when I was visiting the US and found a club near Joliet IL. Jumped in a Duo (a type I hadn't flown before, though I knew the Janus pretty well) with an instructor and surprised the heck out of him by releasing at 700 ft AGL. It very nearly didn't work, with about 15 min of scratching at around launch height. But then I got away to 4000 ft and we went on a nice tour of the area. (there was never any question of not being able to make it back, of course)

Bruce,
Thanks for mentioning our Chicago Glider Club near Joliet IL - and your flight in our Duo. I practice what you are preaching all the time and our tow-pilots sometimes ask the "what was wrong" question if I stay on tow all the way up to 2,000'. But then, I was trained on a winch back in Germany, we were lucky to get 1,500'.
Herb

Herb,

Seemed like a nice operation. Nice fleet and I liked the way some members had houses nestled in the trees on the edge of the field. If my job in Chicago had worked out (.com bust happened .. this was early 2001) I'd have been looking to join the club. As it was, I went back to New Zealand a few weeks before 9/11.

One other interesting point from that flight. We had radio trouble in the circuit. I did a high speed final glide to about 700 ft on the non circuit side (on the runway heading), then a military-style "break and pull" turn onto downwind, bleeding speed. The guy in back got distracted fiddling with the radio while I carried on flying the aircraft. I turned final where I would in the Janus, pulled brakes and ... holy cow ... nothing is happening!! Seems they didn't improve the brakes on the Duo to compensate for the lack of landing flap. Oops.

As it turned out, full brake was sufficient to come down to more or less the threshold, and then we closed the brakes and did a hangar landing anyway. So no big deal. And there was always sideslip available if needed.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 6:21:16 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

A highly respected CFI-G says "I NEVER want to land out" (to budding pilots gathered around the picnic table). "That's just dumb. Why would you get off tow below 1500 AGL? Why take that risk?"

I've overheard this and worse many times. In one case the CFI-G pointed at a respected contest pilot and said, "Competition flying and XC is just insane."

It made me furious. I wanted to order him to get a Diamond Badge before his next renewal or find another line of work.